LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Hand surgery for increased stretch?

bardolph -- 01/06/2005, 19:26:43 -- #10166

Is it true that some Asians have had the webbing between their fingers surgically reduced to increase their stretch? I have the impression that if I had a little less skin between my LH thumb and forefinger, I'd be able to play all the major  10ths instead of just some of the minor ones.  Anyone have any anecdotes/experiences? Of course if I had the money I'd just buy a Steinbuhler :) www.steinbuhler.com

Sweep88 -- 01/06/2005, 23:51:01 -- #10173

wow...I guess I'm lucky.  The only tenth I have trouble reaching is an Ab first inversion.  My advice would be to learn to "roll" your tenths (Fats Waller was notorious for this)....OR, just play octaves.  As far as surgery???   Let your hands be the way God designed them to be.

Scot -- 01/06/2005, 23:54:30 -- #10175

This discussion has been ongoing since they invented the harpsichord. There are a handful of famous composers who had at one time been great pianists until they screwed up their hands by cutting the webbing or doing something else drastic. If you want to have a bigger reach, simply stretch your hand before you play every day.  Since you can hit minor 10ths, there is no reason why you can't hit the major ones if you work on stretching (maybe not D-F#, but not very many pianists can hit that one anyway). If your fingers don't open up and it's a straight line along your thumb and little finger, then you have a lot to go in the area of stretching your hand. One of the easiest stretches is to sit down in a chair and place your left hand on top of your leg, gripping it with your thumb and little finger.  Take your thumb in your right hand and slowly pull it in towards your belly while holding the hand in place with your little finger. If you are doing it  right you'll feel a nice stretch along the entire palm of your hand. Do that to both hands slowly five times each before playing. Also you can learn some Aikido wrist stretches that will help your overall hand flexibility.

sid -- 01/07/2005, 04:32:59 -- #10182

There's a story that Earl Hines had surgery, but I don't know if it's true. Interestingly (well, I find it interesting), studies of embryo development in ducks and chickens show that the webbed foot is the default condition and that a chicken's foot is the result of selective death of web cells between the digits.  Something similar seems to happen in mammal embryos, and different people have different amounts of residual webbing when they're born because of the exent to which foetal cells die in these regions.  It might not help you to stretch that tenth, but maybe of some comfort to know it's a nice example of biological construction through destruction. sid

bardolph -- 01/07/2005, 16:40:43 -- #10193

I have been doing stretching exercises off and on for three years.  When I put my LH on the piano and use the other hand to stretch it, I can make a perfectly straight line between my thumb and little finger, but there is still no way it will reach all the major 10ths.  Thus I cannot believe I will ever be able to do them. This makes me rather angry especially when I read such things as the introduction to "The Harmony of Bill Evans" where Evans and Art Tatum are lauded as the essential jazz pianists of the entire history of jazz, and both of course used 10ths practically every other measure, and had no need to roll them.

Scot -- 01/07/2005, 22:58:51 -- #10197

Well, you have to keep on stretching it and try to make it so you are stretching your hand. If you do the stretch right, your hand will get wider (no kidding) and your reach will increase.  Concentrate on stretching the meaty part of your hand, not just the webbing and frilly stuff.

bopper -- 01/08/2005, 17:43:31 -- #10209

Years ago I went to study with Jaki Byard. He was one of the great stride players (among most other styles). I was amazed to find that his hands were smaller than my very average sized hands. He had a way of 'thumbing' the 9th and the 10th together which works for most 10ths.  Since then, Ive been enjoying playing the 9th on major and minor chords - because its a diminished note and makes for beautiful tensions and resolutions.

CynBad -- 01/09/2005, 14:42:36 -- #10228

Bopper, that was an excellent post.  Some of the greatest pianists in the world can't play parallel 10ths in one hand.  Music is about art, sound, and what works to express yourself, and what you hear in your head.

MoJazz -- 01/09/2005, 17:56:43 -- #10233

"Some of the greatest pianists in the world can't play parallel 10ths in one hand." I heard that Keith Jarrett has small hands and can't play 10ths with one hand. Is this true?

CynBad -- 01/09/2005, 19:24:24 -- #10235

"Some of the greatest pianists in the world can't play parallel 10ths in one hand." "I heard that Keith Jarrett has small hands and can't play 10ths with one hand. Is this true?" I think we should move on to "who cares"?  Unless you want to specialize in playing stride piano, it's irrelevant.  Jarrett doesn't NEED to play parallel 10ths in one hand.  Most people don't.  Most music doesn't require it, and with jazz, or any improvisational music, you can make it your own, and play it your own way.

bardolph -- 01/09/2005, 22:25:56 -- #10241

"Unless you want to specialize in playing stride piano, it's irrelevant. Most people don't [NEED to play parallel 10ths in one hand.]  Most music doesn't require it..." I beg to differ.  If one considers the great jazzers of the 20th century (e.g. Tatum plus a whole raft of non-stride pianists) and today as serious composers whose works are worthy of including in the canon alongside Chopin, Beethoven and the rest, then you need the ability to play unbroken 10ths, in order to play the works as the composer intended.  Imagine we are a two centuries in the future.  The works of Tatum, Evans, and whoever will be part of the glorious past, and because all musical style will have changed so utterly and no one living will have any first-hand knowledge of the music, there will be an overwhelming obligation to play exactly "as written" (or recorded), much as is the case with baroque music today.  Since we cannot feel confident in our knowledge of the improvisational practices of Bach's time, we are pretty much forced to limit ourselves to the written scores with a few carefully (but hardly spontaneously) chosen PERMITTED ornaments. Tatum and the rest used unbroken 10ths for sound musical reasons, and it was their artistic choice to do so.  To do otherwise when playing their music is to play something that they did not intend.  That is fine with the improvisational approach of jazz, where the idea is not to imitate others note for note but rather, to learn their musical language and speak one's own individual and creative variations on it.  A jazz player with this approach does not play a simple imitation of Tatum, but rather tries to capture as much or as little of the Tatum style as he wishes.  This is, of course, one of the particular marvellous aspects of jazz. But the fact remains; those who can do 10ths have an expanded harmonic language; everyone who can do 10ths with ease takes the ability for granted, and judging by the transcriptions, books, and recordings I've been examining, they're EVERYWHERE in jazz and popular piano.  I'd be curious to know how many 10ths-players can honestly say that if they woke up one morning no longer able to stretch 10ths, it wouldn't bother them at all, because "most music doesn't require it."

ziggysane -- 01/09/2005, 22:48:58 -- #10245

Oscar used to suggest that those with smaller hands drop the right hand part temporarily and do a bar or two of walking tenths with the root in the left hand and the tenth in the right.  His theory was that once the audience heard it, their brains would fill it in during the appropriate sections.  Or something to that effect.

CynBad -- 01/09/2005, 23:01:06 -- #10246

Bardolph, I beg to differ right back.  I studied classical piano and have a B.Mus. in Piano Performance.  The classical repertoire, especially Chopin, does not require one to play runs of parallel 10ths in one hand.  Perhaps you can find some of this in Scriabin, but I have never encountered it anywhere else in the literature. I'm not talking about simply stretching or playing the occasional 10th in the left hand (no problem), I'm talking about playing entire bass lines that way, or 10th runs, the way you'd play octave runs (which occur quite often in classical piano music). I have never had any trouble with the serious literature, being a female with average-sized hands. I've played LOTS of Chopin, and for  the most part it doesn't require large hands at all.   I'm merely trying to say that people shouldn't waste too much time and energy worrying about their ability to play blocked 10ths.   It just frustrates people and discourages them.   Music is about sound -- if you can make it SOUND good, it doesn't really matter how you accomplish that.  And... much of jazz piano is played in groups where you will be playing small clusters or rootless voicings in the LH.  If you're playing solo,  you can develop your own style, based on your own ear, your own mind, and even your own HANDS.  Everyone of us is unique -- no one else will hear the same or play the same.  Don't waste time and energy trying to do something your hand can't do,  just so you can sound like someone else.  Comparing yourself to others can DESTROY you.

Scot -- 01/09/2005, 23:14:28 -- #10247

Chopin had tiny hands, his music is great for small and medium sized hands.  Most of the petite Asians that play classical have a huge Chopin repertoire. However, if you want to play everything Rachmaninoff wrote, well, your hands better be as big as Oscar Peterson's. Since the beginning of homosapiends, some people are larger, smaller, faster, slower, etc etc.  Everyone in the entire world learns to work with the tools they have. If you can play walking 10ths, great!  There's a kid here in Bellingham that I teach once in a while. He's got normal sized hands with very long fingers. He can reach every 10th on the keyboard PLUS play the dominant 7th.  He wasn't doing that, but when I helped him work it out on Body and  Soul, you should have seen his eyes. There are more pro big-time jazz pianists than I can name who can't play walking 10ths up the keyboard.  There are guys who in my opinion are better than Tatum and better than Oscar Peterson who can't play walking 10ths. If you want to be a purist and play all the walking 10ths, but your hands are too small or you don't have the reach yet, then you better get more flexible in your mind and not your fingers so you can deal with what you have and make the best of it. I can reach most but not all 10ths, and I can only play a few 10ths with the 7th included.  But I have a lot of tricks up my sleeve that makes it sound like I play all that stuff. I can hop my left hand around as fast as I need to and can do a pretty good Oscar Peterson impression with it, especially if I utilize the thumb on my right hand every now and again. I don't really know where I'm going with this post, but it kind of pisses me off when people make excuses about things, anything.  "My hands are too small so I can't do this or that"  "My hands are too big and stubby so I can't do that or this"  "I'm not tall enough" "My pants are too tight" etc etc etc. Not saying that anyone's making excuses here, but some of the posts kind of sounded like it. Like the theme song to the great movie, nay, I'll put it into film category, Cannonball Run, starring among others Burt Reynolds, Farrah Faucet, Dom Delouise (sp), Jamie Farr, Roger Moore, Jackie Chan, Sammy Davis Jr, Jimmy the Greek, and Dean Martin, "It ain't what ya got, it's how you use it." One of the monster pianists out there has small hands, smaller than me- Michel Camilo. You'd never know it from his playing.

7 -- 01/10/2005, 00:24:53 -- #10258

As many of you have probably heard the Tatum and Waller MP3s I recorded, you will assume that my hands are quite large. They're not. I manage to play the tenths due to years of stretching. I couldn't do them at all when I was in my late teens. Fats Waller was more likely to use lengthy bass lines consisting of consecutive 10ths than Art Tatum, although Tatum seemed to like to throw one in at least every once and a while. There is no shame in playing a quick broken 10th while using the damper pedal to cover the "gap". Better yet, if your piano has the secret third pedal - use that. Those 10th bass lines are often M10 - m10 - m10 - m10 Example: 2Eb3G - 2F3Ab - 2F#3A - 2G3Bb The major tenth hits on beat one (when the pedal is down anyway). The minor 10ths after that are a piece of cake (for me anyway). Waller and Tatum were just as likely to roll that first major 10th as I am. Have patience with yourself. Hands really do stretch.

Ole -- 01/10/2005, 10:39:30 -- #10265

Jarrett has really small hands, and he don``t need surgery. If it is possible to play the way he does without it, no body needs it...

bardolph -- 01/10/2005, 16:23:18 -- #10273

Thank you all for your responses!  I really appreciate the time you took to write at such length.  I am going to continue doing stretching exercises and so forth, but you are right, there is no need to become hung up on the 10ths issue.  I can do most minor 10ths, and with such suggestions as the ones here, that's enough.

Dr. Whack -- 01/10/2005, 21:57:12 -- #10281

Hey Scot, Can you list some of the guys you think are better than Art Tatum, please? Thanks, Rick

marksdg -- 01/11/2005, 09:38:06 -- #10290

I think that to define "better than Art Tatum" is difficult.  It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.  If your goal is simply to play the best sounding music, it is easy to play better than Tatum if you don't like Tatum's style.  I personally am not that fond of Tatum's style, so there would be a huge number of pianists I would say are "better than Art Tatum". What you choose to play is a larger part of what makes you a good musician than what you can play.  In other words, a person with monster tecnique who plays music you don't enjoy is not really a good piano player.  Would anyone say that someone was a good writer just because they could type fast, even if what they wrote was crap? Of course, if you really like Tatum's style then you may think of him as the greatest jazz pianist of all time.  I don't think it makes sense to call him the greatest jazz pianist if he isn't the person who you enjoy listening to the most.

7 -- 01/11/2005, 12:06:58 -- #10294

The person I enjoy listening to the most is me. But I still don't think that I'm better than Art Tatum.

Dr. Whack -- 01/11/2005, 15:20:10 -- #10298

I appreciate your comments, but I fear I've been misunderstood...I really am interested in hearing some of the guys Scot was talking about...

Dr. Whack -- 01/11/2005, 15:20:44 -- #10299

and 7, I envy you...I can't stand to listen to myself!

Dr. Whack -- 01/11/2005, 15:22:04 -- #10300

and...I've never heard a pianist that can even come close to Art Tatum, let alone be better than him...and if they are out there - I wanna hear em! :)

paddyallen -- 01/11/2005, 17:18:20 -- #10303

Oscar Peterson is the nearest I've heard to Tatum but then Art was Oscar's mentor. paddyallen

sid -- 01/12/2005, 04:09:26 -- #10312

Lennie Tristano claimed he could do whatever Tatum could "with scandalous ease".  On the other hand, much as I admire his group stuff, three minutes of solo Tristano is three minutes of earache compared with solo Tatum. sid

bardolph -- 06/15/2005, 17:37:53 -- #15161

This inability to do 10ths still really bothers me in spite of my best intentions not to let it. I just wanted to let you all know the opinion of a bona fide hand surgeon I contacted (a member of the American Association for Hand Surgery). I paraphrase: "I am familiar with this hand-span issue and have seen patients who have undergone surgery by famous and reputable surgeons. The attachments connecting the extensor tendons are cut. Be advised that this is NOT a minor procedure, and worse, the procedure simply does not work. The condition of the hands is in fact worse after the procedure." EeeYikes!

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