| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Modal Blues | |
| MoJazz -- 01/16/2005, 07:24:22 -- #10437 | |
| I was at a jam session with a few decent players just going thru the standards and blues changes. The bass player suggested a modal blues(dorian mode), so I'm comping when the guitarist and bassist stops playing and they tell me "You've got to play the dominant 7th instead of the minor 7th at the 9th measure". I told them I would if we were playing a minor blues, there are no dominant 7ths in the modal blues form. They said there is and that there's no difference between a minor/modal blues. I beg to differ. Same or different? | |
| Dreamboat -- 01/16/2005, 08:22:02 -- #10438 | |
| I'm not schooled in theory as well as some of the educators on this site (Scot, Jazz+, 7, etc.) but what is happening (harmonically) at the ninth measure? For example - is there a IIm7b5-V7-Im7 resolving to a minor chord? It is totally possible for a dominant 7th chord to exist within a tune in a minor mode if it is resolving to the tonic of a minor mode. Also - I don't want to confuse things further but if this does make sense to you - the V chord of a II-V-I in a minor mode is often played as a V7b9 (no root) chord which can add some interesting chromatic movement to the melody. | |
| Mike -- 01/16/2005, 09:07:05 -- #10440 | |
| in any type of blues the ninth meausure can be a ii minor chord or a v7 chord. That is why you will often see someone on stage at the begining of a blues put either two fingers in the air or five fingers in the air. That is what they are telling everyone. What chord the tune calls for in the ninth measure. | |
| 7 -- 01/16/2005, 11:52:25 -- #10444 | |
| MoJazz, Here are a few thoughts: 1. If, according to them, there is no difference between a modal Blues and a minor Blues, then they should have just called a "minor Blues" instead of calling it "modal". 2. Many minor Blues commonly use a bVImaj7 in bar 9, which obviously resolves to a V7 in bar 10. 3. You should have told them that you weren't playing a m7 chord but instead a 7#9 with no major third against their dominant chord. That would've frosted them. 4. It's a frigging JAM SESSION! People are allowed to experiment and make mistakes at a jam session. 5. Even at a jam session you NEVER EVER stop a song in the middle unless there is a train wreck involving fatalities. Pretty decent players they might be, but professionals THEY ARE NOT. 6. Unless your ears don't work, you would've picked up on the chord in question by the 2nd chorus (or at the very least the 3rd chorus) and made the necessary adjustments (if those jerks hadn't stopped the song and went out of their way to embarass you in front of the entire audience). | |
| Jazz+ -- 01/16/2005, 15:06:42 -- #10446 | |
| If Coltrane's minor blues "Equinox" is not a modal blues then I don't know what is. Here are the usual changes in C- for Equinox: | C- | C- | C- | C- | | F-7 | F-7 | C- | C- | | Ab7 +11 | G7 alt | C- | C- | That C- can be a C-7, C-6 or even C- Maj 7 I can be voiced in thirds of in 4ths | |
| Jazz+ -- 01/16/2005, 15:14:09 -- #10447 | |
| On second thought, Miles Davis' "Eighty One" blues is probably what is meant by a "modal blues". It's all "sus" chords: | F7 sus | Bb7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | Bb7 sus | Bb7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus| | C7 sus | Bb7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | |
| Dr. Whack -- 01/16/2005, 16:26:36 -- #10449 | |
| I hope I don't start another long argument, but to me this is an example of when and how "theory" gets in the way of the music - who cares what you play in measure 9 as long as it sounds good? It's a jam session, isn't it? | |
| Mike -- 01/16/2005, 17:24:30 -- #10455 | |
| Frequently I have found I play nothing in measure nine for the first couple of chouruses. I just listen to the Bass player to hear what the Bass is going to play in measure nine, Then in the 2nd or 3rd chorus I start playing measure nine. Then just to confuse people, I started not playing in measures six and nine until the second or third chorus. | |
| Jazz+ -- 01/16/2005, 17:25:23 -- #10456 | |
| Theory does not get in the way of the music. Theory is the universal and best way of talking about the music. It's not the fault of theory if the bass player is playing standard minor blues changes (bar 9 = bVI7) and the piano player, not knowing any better, is playing a V7 for bar 9. It is not going to sound good. | |
| Jazz+ -- 01/16/2005, 17:35:59 -- #10458 | |
| When a minor blues is called at a jam, it's either "Mr. PC" or "Equinox", both by Coltrane. Both are he same C- blues changes with an Ab7 in bar 9. | |
| Mike -- 01/16/2005, 21:24:12 -- #10460 | |
| i coulda sworn Id played a few hundred thousand that used two minor seven flat five in measure nine, But my mind is probally malfunctioning, nothing new. | |
| gsandberg -- 01/17/2005, 02:47:16 -- #10461 | |
| An even more modal blues would be: | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | and then you can spice it up with a bridge: | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | |
| MoJazz -- 01/17/2005, 02:56:39 -- #10463 | |
| Here are a few thoughts: 1. If, according to them, there is no difference between a modal Blues and a minor Blues, then they should have just called a "minor Blues" instead of calling it "modal". You're right, I think the bassist thought he was being real *hip* when he called it. 2. Many minor Blues commonly use a bVImaj7 in bar 9, which obviously resolves to a V7 in bar 10. I hear you, songs like BB King's "The Thrill Is Gone" uses that V7 delayer. 3. You should have told them that you weren't playing a m7 chord but instead a 7#9 with no major third against their dominant chord. That would've frosted them. LOL! Great, I gotta remember to do that next time. "Wait a second, you didn't play the Super Locrian scale on the turn-around. This IS modal blues, right?!" 4. It's a frigging JAM SESSION! People are allowed to experiment and make mistakes at a jam session. Yep, but these dudes need to impress the *Babes*. 5. Even at a jam session you NEVER EVER stop a song in the middle unless there is a train wreck involving fatalities. Pretty decent players they might be, but professionals THEY ARE NOT. What I meant by decent was that they can read a chart and perform -but, the bassist and guitarist didn't know shit about chord substitutions/reharmonisations. If I threw in a tritone sub or a different turn-around they would looked puzzled and frown. 6. Unless your ears don't work, you would've picked up on the chord in question by the 2nd chorus (or at the very least the 3rd chorus) and made the necessary adjustments (if those jerks hadn't stopped the song and went out of their way to embarass you in front of the entire audience). No question about that. I was about to change to the V7, but I guess they had enough and wanted a break. BTW, the jam session was at a private estate party. The owner invited several local players to sit-in with the house band. We got a free pass to the bar and a few players and guest were getting pretty plastered by the time I got to play. So, I think several peeps were embarassing themselves pretty good. One thing I know is that the bassist hasn't played at any clubs or jams that I know of. I wonder why? >:( | |
| MoJazz -- 01/17/2005, 02:58:01 -- #10464 | |
| Here are a few thoughts: 1. If, according to them, there is no difference between a modal Blues and a minor Blues, then they should have just called a "minor Blues" instead of calling it "modal". You're right, I think the bassist thought he was being real *hip* when he called it. 2. Many minor Blues commonly use a bVImaj7 in bar 9, which obviously resolves to a V7 in bar 10. I hear you, songs like BB King's "The Thrill Is Gone" uses that V7 delayer. 3. You should have told them that you weren't playing a m7 chord but instead a 7#9 with no major third against their dominant chord. That would've frosted them. LOL! Great, I gotta remember to do that next time. "Wait a second, you didn't play the Super Locrian scale on the turn-around. This IS modal blues, right?!" 4. It's a frigging JAM SESSION! People are allowed to experiment and make mistakes at a jam session. Yep, but these dudes need to impress the *Babes*. 5. Even at a jam session you NEVER EVER stop a song in the middle unless there is a train wreck involving fatalities. Pretty decent players they might be, but professionals THEY ARE NOT. What I meant by decent was that they can read a chart and perform -but, the bassist and guitarist didn't know shit about chord substitutions/reharmonisations. If I threw in a tritone sub or a different turn-around they would looked puzzled and frown. 6. Unless your ears don't work, you would've picked up on the chord in question by the 2nd chorus (or at the very least the 3rd chorus) and made the necessary adjustments (if those jerks hadn't stopped the song and went out of their way to embarass you in front of the entire audience). No question about that. I was about to change to the V7, but I guess they had enough and wanted a break. BTW, the jam session was at a private estate party. The owner invited several local players to sit-in with the house band. We got a free pass to the bar and a few players and guest were getting pretty plastered by the time I got to play. So, I think several peeps were embarassing themselves pretty good. One thing I know is that the bassist hasn't played at any clubs or jams that I know of. I wonder why? >:( | |
| MoJazz -- 01/17/2005, 04:12:57 -- #10465 | |
| (Damn dbl posts) Jazz+ -- 01/16/2005 When a minor blues is called at a jam, it's either "Mr. PC" or "Equinox", both by Coltrane. Both are he same C- blues changes with an Ab7 in bar 9. On second thought, Miles Davis' "Eighty One" blues is probably what is meant by a "modal blues". It's all "sus" chords: | F7 sus | Bb7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | Bb7 sus | Bb7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus| | C7 sus | Bb7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | That's how I see it at most jams. The key word though is *minor* blues. I've never heard someone call out a modal blues before the jam I played at, but I know now that it means minor blues. However, I think the term "modal blues" is a misnomer. It is an Aeolian mode (harmonic minor) blues. What else can it be analyzed as? I don't think there is a harmonically structured phrygian or locrian blues form. However, you can utilize melodic modal scale forms to support the typical blues harmony when soloing. Another question, can any 12 bar tune still be a blues without at least one dominant 7th chord? gsandberg -- 01/17/2005 An even more modal blues would be: | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | and then you can spice it up with a bridge: | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | F7 sus | Can't be any simpler than that. However, a bassist and guitarist might get a bitch attack about it not being a blues. (16 bars)?#%??! Mike -- 01/16/2005 Frequently I have found I play nothing in measure nine for the first couple of chouruses. I just listen to the Bass player to hear what the Bass is going to play in measure nine, Then in the 2nd or 3rd chorus I start playing measure nine. Then just to confuse people, I started not playing in measures six and nine until the second or third chorus. You should have been at the party. | |
| savage -- 01/17/2005, 08:51:42 -- #10472 | |
| Hey gsandberg, that´s the solo form of Mccoy Tyner´s "Passion Dance". I´ve always suspected that it´s a blues :-) | |
| Dr. Whack -- 01/17/2005, 10:58:27 -- #10480 | |
| hehe... | |
| 7 -- 01/17/2005, 13:09:59 -- #10481 | |
| Both the minor tunes "Ain't No Sunshine" and "Spooky" use mV7. I've also played on "Blues" where ALL the chords are minors (can't remember the names of the tunes tho'), but the guys who called them didn't give them the moniker "modal Blues". | |
| Dr. Whack -- 01/17/2005, 13:36:45 -- #10483 | |
| If I wrote a 13-bar blues that had no I, IV or V chords, would it still be a blues? Would it be modal? | |
| MoJazz -- 01/18/2005, 01:41:56 -- #10487 | |
| artist formerly known as p -- 01/17/2005 If I wrote a 13-bar blues that had no I, IV or V chords, would it still be a blues? Would it be modal? hehe...any jazz musicologynocolist(sic) knows that's the *Harmolodic* form. | |
| scotward57 -- 01/22/2005, 17:16:42 -- #10613 | |
| All Blues has often been referred to as a modal blues because you are emphasizing modal scales on the I and IV chords instead of the usual blues scale. On the I chord, you hear the G mixolydian scale and not just a G major or minor blues scale. In addition, in a modal blues (which can be derived from any 12 bar blues) you can discard the change to the IV chord on bars 5-6 and stay on the I chord. The original All Blues from the Kind of Blue album sort of does that, where Paul Chambers stays on the I in bars 5 & 6 and Bill Evans changes to the IV. So you have this subtle G dominant to G minor sound from bars 1-8 and 11-12 (or 1-16 and 20-24 if you go by the original 24 bar blues in 6/8). The change is so subtle that you can play modally and do some of that McCoy Tyner stretching with 4ths in the LH and playing inside and outside pentatonics. Anyway, that's my take on it. | |
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