Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: Learning Structure

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Learning Structure
elwapo -- 02/03/2005, 08:43:17 -- #10944
Would I be right in saying that there is a more structural approach to learning Latin Jazz because you have specific rhythmic patterns to play in the left hand as opposed to the open ended approach to learning other styles (anything goes. Is Latin Jazz easier to get a grip on because of this? Just a thought!
marksdg -- 02/03/2005, 08:50:54 -- #10945
It certainly seems to me that there is a lot of freedom remaining in Latin Jazz, and that it is no more structured than any other style of jazz. There are specific structures, both rhythmic and harmonic, asociated with blues, bebop, hard bop, smooth jazz, free jazz and funk. These are all just individual styles within jazz, but it seems to me that Latin Jazz is no more constrained within a defined structure than any other style. Even free jazz, which might seem structureless, has very definite conventions that define it.
elwapo -- 02/03/2005, 15:28:48 -- #10957
I,ll take your word for it mark but I have definitely come to believe (from personal experiences and through plenty of other people) that not everybody can learn how to play jazz (including me). I know a couple of people who went to a jazz school here in dublin (including myself)as we were getting nowhere trying to learn ourselves and it was complete shit. The teachers were self centred and arrogant and offered little to no guidance on improv technique. My piano teacher in particular BLINDLY REFUSED to my face to offer any guidance on improvising and said that I have to learn at home by myself as this is the best way. I asked him questions from time to time on what he had just played on the piano as I thought it sounded pretty good but he just got angry and frustruated and told me to stop analysing what he was doing. Needless to say, a couple of us had left pretty early on in the year and just recently they lost a brilliant piano player (classically trained - who is on this site co-incidentally) for the same reasons. So I guess Jazz cant be thought according to these people! My teacher told me that "There is nothing that I can say or show you that will help you to improvise, you have to transcribe at home". This leads me to ask why the hell are there any jazz schools if this is the case as you could seemingly just stay at home and listen to records all day instead of wasting your time in jazz school. I had hoped that this jazz school could offer something in the way of structure and guidance but they failed miserably in this regard. As for all you accomplished jazz pianists in the UK and America and the rest of the world, all I can say is that I would be the happiest person in the world if I could do what you could do but Jazz has just become one huge mountain and I,m stuck somewhere at the bottom. Knowing all of those scales and modes and rootless voivings etc means nothing unless you can use them...........
marksdg -- 02/03/2005, 16:28:19 -- #10958
elwapo, I amcertainly no expert, so don't take my word for it. My comments were just my 2 cents based on my own limited experience. I don't really understand your attitude about just not being able to play jazz. Do you think you have to know lots of scales, modes and rootless voicings before you can play jazz? Without too much work you might be able to play simple blues or boogies, or a jazz blues like 'Blue Monk' with a simple walking base hand. I have never had a jazz teacher, but these things aren't too hard to figure out, if you look for the right resources and have determination. I just started doing jazz 1 1/2 years ago, and I can play pretty good (at least good enough to please non-professionals) and I don't think I have any special talent. It just takes knowing what you want to do and pursuing it. Have you tried intruction books with CDs? You could get a whole load of these for the price of a few lessons. They aren't all good, but look at a few and you might find something that gets you started. I have never had a jazz teacher, but it sounds like the teachers you have had were rotten. I would think any good jazz teacher should teach someone a simple tune they could work up and sound decent on quickly. I don't really practice scales, modes or rootless voicings. I have also never transcribed a solo. These things aren't necessary to get started. Do you have other musicians to play with, or do you want to try playing solo?
elwapo -- 02/03/2005, 18:53:40 -- #10962
Hi Mark! Another thing my piano teacher told me was that it would take at least 10 years for someone (practicing very hard) to get up to any kind of decent standard so that was another thing that dis-heartened me. To answer your question! I would prefer to play solo piano and am prepared to work really hard at it but the problem is that there are so many conflicts (on this site too) as to how to approach learning Jazz. Some say transcribe, others say transcribing is a waste of time (make up your own licks etc), some say read loads of books, others say forget books and just listen, some say think "scales" when improvising, others say "forget scales" and think chords etc so I am just at a complete loss as to how to approach learning jazz. With classical music there are clearly defined steps and short term goals to achieve in order to reach another rung in the ladder but with jazz there are no such mile stones that I can see (no structure). I tried some cd,s and books Mark (Jamey Aebersold for example) but they just presented a scale (say mixolidian behind dom7th) and then provided you with a backing track and then basically said "Off You Go Now! Improvise! See ya!". So I found myself at the piano saying "Aah Crap". I,m glad that your playing is coming along Mark and I appreciate your reply. Maybe my playing could come along a little if I practiced the right things or listened out for the right things. I just dont know............
Scot -- 02/03/2005, 23:11:55 -- #10970
Well, whatever you do, don't believe a word of what that teacher said. I can't even understand why a person like that decided to be a teacher! Obviously, anyone can learn jazz if they love it enough. You listen to the records you like, you try to emulate them, learn what the guys are doing. If you can't play it on the piano, at least be able to sing it. Buy some transcription books. I have some transcription books of Monty Alexander, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, to name a few. I don't learn all the transcriptions, but I play through them and when I find something that sounds really cool, I'll figure out why it sounds that way and try to use it in my own music. Write some tunes! One of the easiest ways to expand your melodic awareness is to try to figure out new stuff by writing tunes. Doesn't matter if they are good or not, just write as many as you can and try to make each one different than the last. When you practice your tunes, record every single practice session and listen to them when you are done. I often record on my mini disk a tune I'm working on and listen to it right after I played it. You won't believe how fast you can improve by doing that- we all know what good music sounds like, and we all know what bad music sounds like. So when you listen to yourself, if it's not as good as you want it, listen to it a few times and figure out why. Maybe you need to leave more space, let the notes ring, or work out some better left hand stuff. My brother has been doing that- recording his gigs and practice sessions- for more than twenty years, and he's one of the first call saxophone/woodwind guys in the Northwest. Though it's nice to have a teacher to bounce things off of, you can do a good job of teaching yourself if you do it right. Another great way to get better is to get any jazz pianists who are passing through town to sit down with you for an hour. Usually you can give them some money and go to the same club they are playing at sometime in the day when there's no one else there. Even one session with a big time pro can give you enough stuff to work on for a long time. I'm still working on stuff that Bill Mays and I talked about when I sat down with him for an hour last summer. Last but not least, upload some midi files here- we'll let you know the areas we think you could work on. You're in the right place to get better at jazz!
signal11 -- 02/03/2005, 23:48:35 -- #10972
Here's a book you should get: "Thinking in Jazz" by Paul F. Berliner. It talks a lot about how jazz musicians learn their craft. Great book.
gsandberg -- 02/04/2005, 02:59:31 -- #10973
Some wise person once said that jazz can be learned but it can´t be taught...to me this means that a lot is up to you, it´s not like someone shows you how and you start to play jazz right away. You have to crac the code and the best way to do that is to transcribe a tune you like and learn it by heart. And be sure to pick a nice tune because youll´always sound a bit like that first tune...
Barry -- 02/04/2005, 05:33:55 -- #10976
elwapo, I am truly sorry that you have had such a horrendous experience learning jazz - please don't believe that there is any reason that you can't learn how to play this stuff. You said yourself: The teachers were self centred and arrogant and offered little to no guidance on improv technique. If this is the case, then it doesn't mean that you are incapable - just that they were! I know jazz can seem confusing because people will tell you that you should do different things to learn. Some people will say transcribe, some say just play, some say just learn tunes, some say think scales, some say think chords - it goes on and on. The reason for this, is that different people have found that different methods have worked for them. This doesn't mean that they will work for you. You need to find out what methods seem to suit you at any one time and give you the best results. I guess also, that it really wouldn't hurt some of the more experienced players and teachers to remember that what has worked for us won't always work for others. This is something I have realised relatively recently and will endeavour to keep that in mind much more in the future. If you would like some help, there are plenty of people here that will be able and willing to help you out. Why don't you tell us what you have been doing in the past and what you find most difficult and, as Scot suggested, if you can post some midis then we will be able to hear what you are doing and help even more. I would also recommend you check out Randy Halberstadt's Metaphors For the Musician. This excellent book deals with the confusion of all the different advice and does a good job of presenting different methods of approaching improvisation and helping you to find the best way for you personally to learn. At the moment it sounds like you are not having any joy with a scalar approach to improv so you might want to look at a more chordal based concept, but I'll reserve judgement until I learn more. Incidentally, it won't take you ten years to get to any kind of standard - if you put in the practice you can start to get it together quite quickly and see regular improvement. I hope you don't give up on something you are interested in because of the disgraceful behaviour of people who should be helping, not hindering. I personally will help as much as I can. This community is a great resource - use us....
elwapo -- 02/04/2005, 08:57:51 -- #10984
Can we equate the art of jazz improvisation to the art of freehand sketching (like a good artist)? When I was in high school in Ireland we were made take Art as a subject for our final exams. Even though I really loved this class (who doesn't) there were inevitably people in this class who really couldn't draw at all yet some other people in the class (say one or two) were naturally gifted and could draw you like a photograph. Some of the other guys were stuck drawing match stick men and other crappy things. What I,m trying to say is that I dont think these people could ever really learn to draw like that other 1% in the class. It wasn't down to lack of effort or anything, its just that they couldn't learn to draw. Music though seems to be alot more mathematical and I know that there are reasons why something you here sounds really good. Its a combination of intervals and runs nicely layed out behind a nice rhythmic feel in your left hand. This is the code that I am trying to decipher! I,m sure that If I could decipher this code in some way that I could then learn to write my own code.......I wish I could sit down at a piano with you guys..........
signal11 -- 02/04/2005, 10:03:21 -- #10985
It's interesting that in your last message you said "they couldn't learn to draw." In my mind, there is a big difference between "not learning to draw" and "can't draw." In fact, I see this sort of thing all the time in my day job as I teach college courses (not in music though). When students claim they can't do something, it usually indicates some kind of problem with their work ethic or they have never learned how to learn. Or maybe they just want me to spoon-feed them some kind of solution. To me, the biggest thing that differentiates students is simply a passion for the subject. It's easy to say "I'd like to play jazz" but talk is cheap. Instead, what are you actually doing about it? Are you listening to jazz all of the time on your stereo? Do you have a regular practice workout? Are you reading books about it? Do you think about jazz all of the time? If not, then it's going to be hard to real make progress. I'd be willing to bet that if you took any of those students you describe as "couldn't draw" the reality is that they're not actually putting much effort into it. On the other hand, if one of those students suddenly started drawing 6 hours and day and worked on it hard core, they'd start to get pretty damn good in short order. I went to high school with this trumpet player who went straight from our high-school band to touring with the Buddy Rich band. Needless to say, everyone else just looked at this guy and said "whoa! I'm never going to play like THAT!" However, the truth of the matter is that this guy practiced his ass off for 8 hours a day every day for 3-4 years. In hindsight, I don't know how in the hell he graduated given that I don't think he even showed up to most of his normal classes. Sure, this guy had some talent, but if you were to compare him to everyone else in band, the only real difference was all of that practice time. Hell, no one else practiced like that. Anyways, I'd claim that anyone could learn how to play jazz (or do just about anything) if they're willing to put a serious effort into it.
albetan -- 02/04/2005, 10:16:01 -- #10986
Hi Elwapo: I invite you to study my files: Beginning improvisation Latin improvisation. LearnJazzPiano may be your best school of piano jazz. Here you will learn to play jazz by yourself. Enjoy it.
Barry -- 02/04/2005, 11:01:55 -- #10988
I know what you mean - although it's a variation on the nature vs. nurture argument from a recent post. Again, there is an excellent article on exactly this in 'Metaphors for the Musician'. I personally believe that whilst it comes more naturally to some than others, anyone can learn to play, draw etc. to a reasonable standard. I think that, if 'talent' or 'ability' or whatever you call it, comes into the equation about how good someone can be - it only kicks in when they have mastered all the technique and theory and rules and vocab and so on. A friend of mine (great player btw) says that you do all the work and learn all this stuff and then you find out whether you've got anything to say or not. I guess that could be my definition of Genius in music and art - an innate and undevelopable natural attribute that manifests itself when technical mastery has been achieved and contributes to producing something others with the same facility and knowledge cannot. I know that it's hard to accept that 'talent' doesn't play a role in how good you become because it's such commonly accepted wisdom that it does. Let me try and give you some idea of why I don't agree with this: Ok, for example, how do teachers define talent in their pupils? Aural ability has got to be an obvious factor? Yet there are plenty of people with perfect pitch who aren't musical and never learn to play anything. I have taught people with perfect pitch who were hopless and never got to grips with it. A recent study showed that a survey of teachers and pupils revealed that the pupils the teachers thought were the most talented were also the ones who practiced the most. Another survey of classical players showed that professional soloists practiced the most, followed by full-time ochestra performers, followed by music teachers and part-time amateur players. Do you see the pattern here!? If talent plays a part in how well you get on with learning music, it merely accelerates the rate of development or allows you to progress more quickly in the early stages. It's also more fun to do things that you appear to be good at or achieve relatively easily. Nobody likes doing things they suck at. Some years ago, after my first term of aural dictation, a new teacher wrote that he thought I may be 'tone-deaf' as I was unable to notate even simple melodic passages after numerous hearings. Well, I'm not tone deaf. I just had no experience of doing anything of that kind in the past - I couldn't reconcile the sounds with the musical symbols. Now, had he asked me to play him the passage back, I'm sure I would have done much better as I had had experience of trying to work things out from tape and radio and so on. Do you see how easy it is to label familiarity with something as 'talent' and conversely a lack of familiarity as a lack of talent. Maybe the 'talented' kids in your art class had already enjoyed a lot of drawing as little kids, whereas the 'untalented' artists had played more sport or whatever. Maybe it was just that, although you assumed you were the same because you were all in the same class and were having the same tuition, you were not at all the same but had completely different levels of familiarity with, and experience of attempting to sketch. Don't tell yourself (and this goes for all you beginner lurkers out there!) that there is anything about you that naturally will prevent you from learning - or it will prevent you from learning! The more you practice, the more you will improve. That is the simple undeniable fact of all music. How good you become depends on how much practice you do. Don't ever forget that and don't let anyone tell you your can't do it. Good luck!
Scot -- 02/04/2005, 14:46:00 -- #10993
I'm a big believer in "you can do whatever you want" I know that when I set my mind to something, I can do it. I can sit down and work on art and make some very nice drawings and paintings if I focus my time on it. I can learn high level math and computer programming if I focus on it and do the right kind of research and practice. Same with everything else in life. Obviously, if you are 6'10" tall, it's going to be easier to be a pro basketball player than if you are 5'10" tall, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Someone (Signal?) above said "mabey they haven't learned how to learn". This is so important! There are definitely right ways and wrong ways of learning and the lack of patience and desire to focus on one thing for extended periods of time is the reason why most people are happy to not be learning anything, especially something as involved as jazz piano. Those books mentioned above are very good- read them and you'll be inspired to continue digging into jazz piano in ways you never thought possible. "We are the dreamers of dreams, we are the music makers." ~ Willie Wonka
hotlipsporter -- 02/07/2005, 12:36:38 -- #11048
Elwapo, I know that a lot of good things have been said here already. I just wanted to tell you that Jazz is a language and, in my opinion, is alot easier to learn if you approach it as such. You would never have learned english as a child if your mom was just giving you books about it and explaining the theories and rules of the language. In fact, I'll bet that most of the learning you did as a baby and young child, in regard to language, was done through listening and imitation. Clark Terry said that we must imitate, assimilate and then innovate. While transcription books are good for some things, you'll get alot more out of transcribing songs and solos by ear (written and on your instrument without writing). Take some very early paino solos by Earl Hines or transcribe some of Louis Armstrong's early hot five solos, like "potatoe head blues" or "struttin with some barbeque". Louis Armstrong is to Jazz, what Bach is to Classical music, so you can't go wrong listening and imitating him, no matter what instrument you play. Yes, theory-scales, modes, substitutions, structure, etc... and all of the books that show you all of these things are great, but they are not going to make you learn a language. If you really want to learn the language of Jazz and speak it, then you have to hear it (listen constantly- you have to want to), imitate (like a baby imitating their mum or dad- every day) then innovate (apply the books and theoretical knowledge much like you did in middle school or highschool to speak English better). If you have learned any language at all up until this point, then you have already gone through the process that is required of you to learn the great language of jazz. Set some of those books aside for now and just listen, listen and listen. Then imiatate and only after you have imitated something, find out from a teacher or book, what it was you were doing. You didn't know what a conjugation was before you did as a child through imitation, yet you did do it...right? Theory is much better learned through hindsight- only then does it really make sense. Just like if I were to tell you that you would have to use 56 muscles in a particular order or combination to sit up from a chair. Well, I think you would be sitting for a long time if you were to try and think about every little coordination between all of the muscles. But, if you were to read about it after having learned to sit up, then you experience what I like to call an "AHAA" moment. When the light bulb turns on. Listen-listen-listen!! Immitate, assimilate and then innovate. Best of luck. Hotlipsporter ps: learning latin jazz is just a difference in dialect- same language though.
Dr. Whack -- 02/07/2005, 13:36:25 -- #11050
Wow! Who was that masked man?! Hotlipsporter, you have articulated my thoughts beautifully! Thank you! (and I still don't know what a conjugation is:)
Jazz+ -- 02/07/2005, 14:33:36 -- #11051
ARTICLE: Neuroscientists have discovered why children excel at learning languages. Scientists may finally have an explanation for why children reign supreme when it comes to learning new languages. Using MRI and animation technology to study the brains of children, researchers like Dr. Paul Thompson of UCLA have discovered that children are processing language information in a different region of the brain than adults. There are different areas in the brain controlling different functions in our lives. When we brush our teeth, sign our names or drive a car, we don't consciously think: "move the right hand up and down like this," "capitalize this letter," or "turn the wheel 30 degrees to the left." These are examples of automatic brain function. When children acquire language, this same part of the brain, called the "deep motor area," is what they use, so the language is like second nature. But when adults learn a second or third language, their brains operates differently. The window of opportunity to imprint information and skills in the deep motor region of the brain is widest during early childhood and nearly shut by the time we reach about 18. Therefore, adults have to store information elsewhere, in a more active brain region. As a consequence, adults usually think sentences through in a native tongue and then translate them word-by-word, instead of thinking in automatically in another language like a child would. Even for people with extensive training in a second language as an adult, who feel their speech is automatic, on a neurological level the brain is still operating differently from a child's. Research into the neurology of language acquisition is proving useful because understanding the "geographic" differences of language learning in children versus adults may influence educators and their decisions about foreign language instruction. As an example, Thompson says simply teaching young children the sounds and accents of other languages at an earlier age may be valuable, even if they are not getting full instruction in the language. Learning those sounds later in life – from a neurological perspective – can be more difficult. CONTACTS Paul Thompson, Ph.D : Assistant Professor of Neurology Lab of Neuro-Imaging & Brain Mapping Division 4238 Reed Neurology, UCLA Medical Center 710 Westwood Plaza Los Angeles, CA 90095-1769
orson -- 02/07/2005, 15:18:34 -- #11052
There are lots of different types of learners, and one method is not correct for every person at every point in their learning profile. I would say try everything suggested until you find something that clicks, whether it is books, transcribing, lessons, ear training, whatever. You will know immediately when you are learning something useful, something that helps you to a new level. If you aren't learning, break it off and try a different approach. Once you find something that works, you may find that other approaches are suddenly much more informative. Making that first crack in the wall can be difficult, but you probably have some idea already what type of learner you are. For example, I would recommend that you: a) find a better teacher, one willing to teach what you want to learn. b) read some books like the ones mentioned in these posts. c) try some easy transcriptions and ear training exercises. d) find people to jam with who are also learning. You will learn a lot from each other's mistakes, and by observing how other people learn. e) listen to a lot of music and try to get a clear idea of what YOU would like to sound like. Attend live music events with the idea of studying in mind. f) don't practice drills, scales, transcriptions, or anything else without purpose. If you don't feel you are learning from them at this point, spend your time elsewhere and come back to them when you are ready. When something clicks, run with it.
Dr. Whack -- 02/07/2005, 15:44:47 -- #11054
Excellent point(s) orson - it's important that we who teach remember that as well - that's actually what makes teaching fun!
Dr. Whack -- 02/07/2005, 15:47:43 -- #11055
Whoops! Sorry to have skipped over the article jazz+ submitted - very interesting
elwapo -- 02/07/2005, 17:24:09 -- #11056
What I admire more than jazz is the fact that you people take the time out to offer me this kind of advice. OK! So what are my doing at the moment and what are my main problems? I get up at around 6:30 in the morning and spend an hour or so drilling through the hanon exercises because I really do think that if all else fails then at least my technique is improving on a daily basis (i find those hanon exercises kind of relaxing actually). I come home from work at about 7:00 or so and this is when I sit down and try to focus on jazz. Lately I,ve been drilling left hand rootless voicings in my left hand whilst arpeggiating the relevant tritone with my right hand (i include the 5th of the chord also). I feel that by getting use to where the tritone is and gradually adding chord tones (just adding the 5th for now) that my chord voicing skills will get alot better. I want to get to a point where I can I can pick and choose what tones (tensions)to add to a chord on the fly. I just got my hands on a cd rom with all of the real books on it (about 10 jazz fake books) so I,ll also be practicing my voicings in the context of tunes (keeping the melody note on top and basically playing the root, tritone in between). Once I reckon I,m pretty good at this then I,ll start tackling flat 9ths and flat 13ths etc). I love practicing this because I know that I,m definitely becoming more competant at voicing chords and becoming more aware of the keyboard. Sometimes I drill "So What" and "Fourth" voicings diatonically up and down the major scales but I feel I,m probably getting a bit ahead of myself here. Now! Jamey Aebersold said in one of his volumes (Volume 3 I think) that in order to construct a decent solo you actually have to play a chord tone on beats 1 and 3 to give it a sense of direction and it will sound good. I was delighted when I heard this (I thought I won the Lottery)because here I thought was an actual equation to sound good. That teacher I mentioned above soon put me off this idea by saying that "This is years down down the line, you cant possibly think about this now" so I said "Ok so! what do I do now?" He never really replied so I kind of forgot about that idea. I transcribed Wynton Kelly,s solo on "Freddie the Freeloader" because this is what I,d love to sound like for sure. I tried to break the solo down a bit and was conscious of not memorizing licks as such but actually trying to figure out why this solo sounds so good. I noticed things like he was using alot of chromatic passing tones (leading chromatically into the 5th 6th and hovering around the third alot - you know what I mean) so I said to myself "I can really benefit here if I make up some excersise that revolves around using chromatic passing tones leading into the 5th and 6th and 3rd" so I did! are my being too analytical here? I need to do alot more listening though, it just seems like there aren,t enough hours in the day. I,m not being impatient or anything and I dont want to come across as someone who wants a quick easy fix or anything but what I would really love advice on is maybe some exersises or practice strategies that you guys adapt. I found all your replies very interesting and inspirational. Its time for me to climb up the ladder now! THANKYOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP!
marksdg -- 02/07/2005, 17:51:08 -- #11057
Elwapo, It sounds like you are working toward what you want to do. If you want to do jazz like Wynton Kelly's solo, you need to start working in a group. Do you plan on getting together with some other amateurs? That right now would be the best way to learn. It sounds like you are studying jazz piano for group playing, but have not played with a group yet. I believe you will burn out on this unless you get together with a group. Your sound will always be incomplete and frustrating unless you can relly see what it will sound like when you add the bass and drums. You might find that you can already do well in a group, in a way that may not be apparent when you are playing by yourself.
elwapo -- 02/08/2005, 03:56:14 -- #11062
I know exactly what you mean Mark! The only problem is that I cant find any jazz musicians around. Maybe I should start jamming along with those aebersold records again! Thanks again....
marksdg -- 02/08/2005, 08:56:25 -- #11063
Elwapo, If jamming with other musicians is not a possibility, then I would highly recommend you start learning solo jazz piano techniques, so you can sound good by yourself without the Aebersold record. I would start learning some blues or boogies, for which there are lots of varieties of instruction books with CDs. If you really want to learn a jazzier sound, try constructing walking base lines in your left hand. When you are doing solo piano, it is much more important to know what to do with your left hand than work on lots of voicings. Different options for your left hand are: 1)Walking (Start with very simple patterns, like doing 1,2,3,5 of each chord for the 4 beats) 2) Stride (described in the lessons on this site) 3)Boogie (get a book) 4) Bossa Nova (simple pattern using 1st and 5th of chord, described in Albetans Area on this site) 5)Arpeggios (Sometimes appropriate for a ballad. I also like to do a slow stride on some ballads) 6)Repeating base lines, like in So What (I have never really liked this particular one as solo piano, however) You need to find simple patterns that work for you for your left hand. 90% of your brain should be going into your right hand, so don't worry if you think your left hand sounds too simple. If patterns like stride are difficult at first, memorize a fixed left hand pattern so you can improvise only with your right hand. Even for a walking base line, memorize a fixed pattern at first so you don't have to think much about it. I have found jazz instruction books to be poor on material for learning solo piano, so you might want to start with some blues or boogie books, which teach solo piano thoroughly, and then work back into jazzier stuff.
elwapo -- 02/08/2005, 16:41:22 -- #11071
Hi Mark! I do actually prefer the thought of playing as a solo pianist so you have hit the nail right on the head with that one. I prefer jazz with a heavy blues feel and I,m hungry for some walking base lines so if you could recommend any recordings off hand then that would be a real plus. I,ve actually been playing stride (scott joplin -ragtime) for a number of years already but I was under the impression that if you could'nt reach a tenth interval in the left hand then you are kind of restricted when playing stride jazz (although levine suggests rolling the tenth and somebody on this site sugested playing minor 6th intervals and what not but IMHO it just doesn't have the same feel about it). I know what you mean about walking base lines though Mark, I,d love to be able to run through a jazz-bluesy walking base line in my left hand and just play some smooth bluesy lines in my right hand. Come to think of it, I,d be bloody delighted if I could do that. On your sound advice, I,m going to transcribe a nice base line and work from there. As for arpeggios, the only dealings I have with them really are from drilling Dom 7th arpeggios (hanon exercises) just for technique. Thanks again for your help and to all the above.........
marksdg -- 02/08/2005, 17:02:52 -- #11072
My best recommendation for a recording is 'Gene Harris at Maybeck'. This is a solo piano recording, and you can get a good feeling for some different walking techniques for solo piano, and he always does a very bluesy sound. There are lots of other Maybeck recordings of different artists doing solo piano. On this recording, try to copy 'Lu's Blues', which has a super simple left hand. As I said above, instead of transcribing walking base lines, you can start with just the 1,2,3,5 on each chord, and do 1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2 for 2 bars on the same chord. I find this worked well for starting on Autumn leaves, and then solo using E minor or E blues. As far as stride, it is unfortunate that stride is used to refer to both walking 10ths and to the more Ragtime type of stride. They are both called stride because they are often used as two techniques in the same pieces. Go ahead and try using the ragtime type, as shown on the example for 'Softly as in a Morning Sunrise' on this site. I like to do a slow stride on 'Round Midnight' (no 10ths required!). As far as instruction books, I found a series of three books with CD's by "Dr. John" to be very helpful. He is not good at describing what he is doing, but there are a lot of examples of different blues styles written out, with a lot of stuff on the CDs but not written out. He covers Blues, Boogies, New Orleans style blues, and Gospel. Like I said, the verbal instructions are not great but the examples and playing are great.
elwapo -- 02/09/2005, 08:44:27 -- #11077
I,m going to take a trip to the record store on saturday and buy that cd you sugested Mark (Thanks for your help on that). If there are any piano players out there who could relate to what I have been saying in this thread then I would like to recommend a dvd called "Secrets to Improvisation" by (forgot his name but I,ll get back to it). Mike suggested that I get this dvd and I have to say that it is very inclusive and gives a really good grounding on the blues and gives great advice on practice strategies etc. Theres also a great blues solo arrangement on this dvd that is great to transcribe and I feel that it is really helping me along. I hear the pianist playing 4th intervals with the blues scale structure and this gives a really really nice sound. (Why the hell couldnt my teacher have just suggested something like that to me?....) I think I,m getting to grips with the fact that most of the work has to be done on your own initiative and that you cant really rely on anybody to give you a magic piece of information that will make you improvise. I think its also vital that you listen and practice the right things or else you could well get so frustruated that you may forget about learning jazz altogether and move onto something else. And "Hotlipsporter" if you are reading this then this is a big hello to you too! I believe we have a mutual friend and I also believe that you are an incredible Jazz musician so it would be great to hear from you on this site if you could find the time (I,m just being selfish now! I believe youre a great teacher!).
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