| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: "Wave" chord confusion | |
| mike_a -- 02/03/2005, 09:09:55 -- #10947 | |
| I'm working on the song "Wave" (Antonio Carlos Jobim, realbook 1 pg 452) At my lesson yesterday, I was confused on measure 6. The chord looks like a Bb07. This is Bb dimished, right? My instructor said to treat that like Bb minor, flat five. The melody in the measure goes G, Bb, C#, E, G, F#, A, which kind of makes me think it's a full diminished Bb rather than 1/2 diminished. What do you think? | |
| marksdg -- 02/03/2005, 09:15:16 -- #10948 | |
| I always though Bb07 was fully diminished, but maybe I am wrong. Which sounds better to you in that spot? | |
| Dr. Whack -- 02/03/2005, 10:05:23 -- #10949 | |
| the little circle stands for fully diminished as you thought (Bb Db Fb Abb)- a circle with a slanted line through it is a half diminished which is the same as m7 b5 (Bb Db Fb Ab) seems to me the m7b5 would clash with the melody I always use an A7b9 there which is like a Bb dim with an A bass -that resolves nicely to the Am that follows:) | |
| albetan -- 02/03/2005, 14:23:14 -- #10952 | |
| Bbdim or Bbo are the correct way for writing Bb diminished chord. An added 7 is obsolete and confusing. Please ignore it. | |
| Jazz+ -- 02/03/2005, 15:18:50 -- #10956 | |
| You are correct and your instructor is mistaken. It's a Bb diminished 7 chord which acts like a rootless A7b9 (same notes without the root). A7b9 is V7 of D7 which is where the Bb dim chord progesses to (the D7 is preceded by it's ii chord A-7) | |
| Dr. Whack -- 02/03/2005, 17:05:47 -- #10961 | |
| But if the bass player is playing a Bb, it's not acting like an A7 - it is still a Bb diminshed - it's only a rootless A7b9 if the bass is playing A... | |
| Jazz+ -- 02/03/2005, 20:25:03 -- #10966 | |
| Yes it is acting like a disguised A7 b9, the Bb in the bass is the flat 9 of A7b9. The scale/chord tones are all the same for Bb dim 7 and A7 b9. It's a disguised A7 b9 going towards a D7 ( V of V) | |
| Dr. Whack -- 02/03/2005, 22:30:29 -- #10967 | |
| not this again... | |
| Dr. Whack -- 02/03/2005, 22:36:35 -- #10968 | |
| The scale/chord tones are all the same for Bb dim 7 and A7 b9 not true, there's no A natural in a Bb diminshed 7th - I guess if you want to act like there is, you can | |
| Jazz+ -- 02/03/2005, 22:44:14 -- #10969 | |
| Bb dim 7 = Bb C# E G A7 b9 = (A) Bb C# E G Bb dim 7 scale = (A) Bb C C# D# E F# G A7 b9 scale = (A) Bb C C# D# E F# G Note: Enharmonic spellings have been used | |
| Barry -- 02/04/2005, 05:54:11 -- #10977 | |
| Mike said My instructor said to treat that like Bb minor, flat five. He didn't say treat is like Bb minor seven flat five. So he is right in a certain respect. Incidentally Albetan, I always write Bbo7 because, otherwise, there is no way to indicate a straight dim. triad - Bbo(no 7) is clumsy. Bit of a grey area in that respect... Whack and Jazz+ are splitting hairs here. Jazz+ said that the scale/chord tones are the same for Bbo and A7b9- meaning that the implied scales have the same notes in them - correct. Dr. Whack was also correctly pointing out that the Bbo chord does not have an A natural in it. A diminished chord is a diminished chord - not a dom7b9. However, because they are such similar chords then they are often substituted for each other. The Bbdim in this case is a substitution for the more likely A7b9... Clear as mud everyone? | |
| Dr. Whack -- 02/04/2005, 08:04:03 -- #10981 | |
| well sorry to be splitting hairs, I was just trying to stick to the original question that was asked - so as not to make this muddy - oh well Jazz+'s example shows how a Bbdim7 is an enharmonic C#dim7th, and yes that does function much like a V7 (A7)...that just isn't what was asked....and in a theory class, hairs are often split when it comes to getting your grade:) Some of us understand all of this and some of us don't - I'm usually speaking to the latter | |
| mike_a -- 02/04/2005, 08:10:13 -- #10982 | |
| The Mark Levine Jazz Theory book talks about diminished harmony with the "half step, whole step" scale for 7b9 chords and a "whole step, half step" scale for o7 chords. I just haven't seen too many full diminished chords (I'm still relatively a newbie). I use that half whole scale on the first A7 in Meditation so it opens up some doors on the Wave song - same scale over Bbo7 now. Another cool way I'm looking at it is a chord notes and their leading tones (or lower neighbor tones, whatever) and I improvise differently when I put my head into it that way. I wasn't making the connection until you guys shed some light on it. I guess you can read a ton of theory stuff and it won't gel until you have a chance to apply it. Thanks for the info. Mike p.s. I hope I didn't cause too much dissention in the ranks. | |
| Dr. Whack -- 02/04/2005, 10:57:14 -- #10987 | |
| hey not at all - if a debate sheds light on something for someone, that's a good thing! - that's the purpose for this forum:) | |
| Barry -- 02/04/2005, 11:03:46 -- #10989 | |
| Whack, I too was attempting to clear up confusion. Go altruism! LJP rules! | |
| Dr. Whack -- 02/04/2005, 12:15:57 -- #10991 | |
| Barry - you are the consummate diplomat! I really appreciate your level-headed interventions:) | |
| albetan -- 02/04/2005, 16:39:12 -- #10994 | |
| Dear friend Barry: In classical harmony we work with triads but in jazz harmony we work with complete chords. Working with triads Cmb5 = C Eb Gb. Here we are speaking about a diminished fifth chord. This may be an incomplete diminished or half-diminished chord. Working with complete chords Cdim or Co = C Eb Gb A. In the form of writing Cdim7 or Co7 that 7 it is confusing because it corresponds to bb7. In a diminished chord seventh is double flatted. So that way of writing Cdim7 or Co7 is obsolete and confusing because neither 7th nor b7th are contained in chord but bb7h. I respect your point of view and some musicians write it as you, but I think it’s better to omit that confusing 7. Good luck. | |
| Barry -- 02/05/2005, 09:42:02 -- #10998 | |
| Yes, you're quite right Albetan, this is one of those cases where the notation frankly isn't up to the job! It's because the music has evolved so much over the centuries and yet our ways of notating it have stayed broadly the same. Still, it's not the end of world! Thanks for your post. | |
| 7 -- 02/05/2005, 11:46:54 -- #10999 | |
| Not obsolete. Not confusing. Lower a perfect interval - it becomes diminished. Lower a major interval - it becomes minor. Lower a minor interval - it becomes diminished. | |
| albetan -- 02/05/2005, 15:44:18 -- #11009 | |
| Our friend 7 is right speaking about intervals, but our stuff here is about chords. That 7 in Cdim7 is confusing and obsolete. | |
| CynBad -- 02/05/2005, 19:36:19 -- #11011 | |
| A Bb diminished triad is NEVER referred to as a Bb minor flat-5 triad. It's DIMINISHED. Period. | |
| Dr. Mike -- 02/05/2005, 20:10:22 -- #11012 | |
| wave calls for a diminsihed 7 chord in that measure. There are several dominant 7 chords that can work nicely in that measure especially on the solo choruses but in my opinion Bb-7b5 does not work there. It was probally a senior moment by your instructor. | |
| 7 -- 02/05/2005, 20:14:49 -- #11013 | |
| A diminished 7th chord is defined as "a diminished triad on the bottom with a diminished 7th interval on top". Which is dim triad + dim 7th. It is therefore also known as the double-diminished 7th. "Double diminished 7th" is a trifle long to scribble, so its shorthand form in chord charts is simply "dim7" or "°7". Albetan, just because it's confusing to you doesn't mean it's confusing to everybody. Also I'm not sure on whose authority you presume to proclaim any musical symbol's "obsolescence". | |
| 7 -- 02/05/2005, 20:16:47 -- #11014 | |
| its shorthand form in chord charts is simply "dim7" or "°7". | |
| Dr. Mike -- 02/06/2005, 09:27:52 -- #11018 | |
| i agree there is nothing confusing at about the 7 in c dim 7. If anything it is less confusing than trying to teach why Maj 7 chords have a natural 7 and dominant 7 chords have a flated 7th. Nor does it show any signs whatsoever of becoming obsolete, in fact it has become more and more prevalent in modern music, only old fake books tend to have the chord symbol c dim with out the 7. Modern fake books almost without exception include the 7 when there is a diminished chord. | |
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