| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Soloing with no Bass | |
| jazz jasper -- 03/02/2005, 18:26:02 -- #11664 | |
| I guess this will limit the responses i get but if does anyone have any idea how Kenny Barron accompanies him self in his solo in 'softly as in a morning sunrise' from the albumn 'people time' with Stan Getz? I cant get my head round how one man makes one piano sound like a whole rhythm section! Ive tried playing it in a stride piano way but it sounds very traditional, and ive also tried different designs, e.g, root, chord, chord root, root, chord, etc... The reason i want to know is that im at college studying Jazz full time and a trumpet player wants to do a performance (of Softly) with just piano and Trumpet, i can 'comp the trumpet quite happily but i cant solo with out a bass player, does anyone have any tips, or any ideas on what Kenny Barron is doing?! Thanks Jazz | |
| marksdg -- 03/02/2005, 18:56:46 -- #11665 | |
| I am not familiar with this particular recording, but one thing that I think works well is to play a low base note on beat 1 and do comping higher the rest of the bar. Add a few leading notes before the base note also. | |
| CynBad -- 03/02/2005, 22:41:17 -- #11666 | |
| Randy Halberstadt's book, Metaphors for the Musician, has a lot of GREAT stuff on how to play SOLO piano, without a bass. | |
| Dr. Mike -- 03/03/2005, 02:27:14 -- #11669 | |
| One thing is absolutely for sure; you should try to do it how you do it not how Kenny Barron does it. | |
| beanabus -- 03/03/2005, 07:55:46 -- #11673 | |
| Just a thought - perhaps a guitarists perspective might help. Martin Taylor does the whole rythm section in one person thing better than anyone. However, the guitar, unlike the piano, is capable of playing only three lines of true written polyphony. Melody and bass line is actually very hard to improvise at the same time. Playing lots of notes in the way a piano can is out of the question. So, a solo guitar player must be a master at making a lot out of a little. Taylor says the secret is to think in two part counterpoint - bass against the mleody. When the melody is busy, the bass can afford to be simple. When the melody taks a rest, the bass should be busy. Seeing Taylor live, I can see his point. He's very good at juggling foreground and background, at keeping the listener's ear occupied. I'm sure Barron does something similar, as does Oscar Peterson. Obviouly, the Baroque repetoire and Bach especially, feature many examples of this type of writing. We can assume that Baroque composers were also able improvisors in this style - but I digress. So - the first link in the chain is to get really good at walking bass lines. The bass - in Arnold Schoenberg's words - is the second melody, the second most important voice in music. Then add chords and obligattos to taste. When you solo, strip it down to bass in one hand and melody in the other. Why not ask a bass player you admire for advice on how to come up with really good sounding walking bass lines? As a guitarist, I notice that I can play in a trio with a really good bass player, and it doesn't sound empty. With a less able bass player, I need to do more work. The thing is there are no more notes being player in the first example - just stronger notes. | |
| Dr. Whack -- 03/03/2005, 09:20:56 -- #11674 | |
| I would suggest in solo piano improvising, that the bass might be the most important part. If it is not solid, you RH will have to work a lot harder to create anything. (like trying to buid a house without a foundation) I like to think of myself as a trio when I play solo - I have to provide bass and drums as well as piano... While I'm sure reading through some of the books mentioned above would provide you with some ideas, there's nothing like good ole elbow grease (listening and practicing) to get the job done... | |
| pianogirl -- 03/03/2005, 16:26:09 -- #11683 | |
| I have been doing a lot of duo work lately - learning it I mean! The guy I study jazz piano with has been a pro for 35 years. For the past few months he has been fooling around with jazz recorder of all things (an easy wind instrument to pick up when you are a piano player) and I have been accompanying him. We have a lesson every few weeks and then each week spend a few hours jamming together. About the bass business. Initially it was just getting comfortable with laying down a "carpet" of bass lines and chordal material. Now that I have some content to work with, I am doing more interactive stuff as well as specific styles - ballads, walking bass, bossa, samba, etc. Still far from where I would like to be but I am loving it! [my first attempts at walking were pretty sad!] I will be accompanying a singer in a few months at a private party as well. I love the People Time recording with Kenny Baron and Stan Getz. Also, a newer one is the Joel Frahm-Brad Mehldau duo recording. On that one they do East of the Sun as a "tip of the hat" to the Baron-Getz recording. Another one is the Kenny Baron-Regina Carter album. I found that doing duo work has soooo improved my understanding of chord progressions, extensions, and voicings. My ear has gotten more finessed in hearing what is a resonant "good" voicing in terms of which notes where. It has given me more facility for playing in groups. Here's a question - how do you balance laying out the chord progression through the bass line with being more free/interactive? In other words, is there a "skeleton" of the tune's bassline (i.e. a few chords for each section) that you "must" play? How little can you get away with? | |
| Dr. Mike -- 03/04/2005, 01:00:31 -- #11688 | |
| Interesting and wise answers from all. I must concur most enthusiaatically howeverever with my fellow Doctor | |
| 7 -- 03/04/2005, 03:06:23 -- #11690 | |
| Maybe if you can grunt loud enough and low enough, you can convince the audience that it's a rhythmic bass line. | |
| Dr. Whack -- 03/04/2005, 16:28:49 -- #11699 | |
| Thank you Doctor | |
| jazz jasper -- 03/04/2005, 19:25:22 -- #11701 | |
| Thanks all for the advice its really helped im going to try all of the suggested and see what works best. I think the grunting it probably the best advice though!!! Thanks again. | |
| dougmck -- 03/04/2005, 22:47:16 -- #11703 | |
| Because the same basic harmonic progressions occur regularly, I would suggest that you get down some of the really common harmonic patterns - perhaps in your most 'comfortable' keys. Practise a strong line over ii V I in lots of keys, the common 'turnaround' progressions - like iii vi ii V, the blues progression(s), the Rhythm change progression(s). If you listen to some of the pianists who do this well, often the left hand walking line is quite simple and predictable. I am sure that they are, at least for some of the time, on 'auto-pilot'. It is the Right hand stuff that strikes you - the walking line has more or less a support role. And I think, more important even than the notes, is the 'feel' that you generate with your left hand and this is a much more complex thing to learn. It includes things like articulation (usually hold on to the notes for their full value), accents (on which beat do tghey fall?), auxiliary notes (we try to emulate the unpitched percussive 'notes' that real bass players can play usually by playing very short staccato 'kick' notes before the main note on the beat, playing right on the beat or ahead of the beat. Listen to Dave McKenna, Jessica Williams, Oscar Peterson, Kenny Barron. All have different and distinctive styles. Pick one that you like and try to copy not just the notes, but the whole thing - accents, articulation ....etc. Disregard Mike's advice. You can copy these players - that's how you learn. Doug | |
| Dr. Whack -- 03/05/2005, 12:13:16 -- #11706 | |
| I think Doug's comment: If you listen to some of the pianists who do this well, often the left hand walking line is quite simple and predictable. I am sure that they are, at least for some of the time, on 'auto-pilot'. It is the Right hand stuff that strikes you - the walking line has more or less a support role. and mine: I would suggest in solo piano improvising, that the bass might be the most important part. If it is not solid, you RH will have to work a lot harder to create anything. (like trying to buid a house without a foundation) actually go hand in hand. The reason I cited the bass line as the most important was because "auto-pilot" is the goal:) | |
| pianogirl -- 03/05/2005, 17:49:41 -- #11713 | |
| Great thoughts and ideas - thanks! Thought of another duo CD from the 90's that I have not listened to in a while but did enjoy. Bill Frissell and Fred Hersch - Songs That We Know. Very "contrapuntal" and interactive rather than soloist with accompanyist. And standards as well. | |
| jazz jasper -- 03/05/2005, 19:35:23 -- #11715 | |
| Yeah that makes sense about auto pilot, i think if i work on a really solid left hand until its second nature in a tune then ill be able to do what i want with my right. Thanks. | |
| lutonomy -- 03/07/2005, 00:01:00 -- #11720 | |
| A former teacher (and now current friend) studied several years with Kenny Barron and I remember him showing me a loooong time ago how Kenny taught him to walk with his LH. It's suprisingly simple, but takes quite awhile to master completely. Took me a couple years before I could walk and solo without thinking about my LH. But basically, he said for changes that last 1 bar, practice the pattern of R-5-R-LT, with LT being a leading tone to the next change (and the two roots on beats 1 and 3 being different octaves). If the change lasts two bars, practice R-5-R-5-9-b9-R-LT, again with the first two roots changing octaves. For 2 beat changes (half bar) just do R-5 or R-LT. That will take you pretty damn far. If you can get that on autopilot, enhancing the bass lines with walk-ups and other little hickity-bird triplet tricks is all downhill from there. Good luck! | |
| 7 -- 03/07/2005, 01:13:53 -- #11722 | |
| Remember that in Jazz, the LT is most often the chromatic above the target note (as opposed to the chromatic below the target note). | |
| jazz jasper -- 03/07/2005, 10:01:17 -- #11727 | |
| Wow thats really useful and intresting. Thanks for that ill get practicing! | |
| marksdg -- 03/07/2005, 12:10:35 -- #11728 | |
| Another thing that sounds good is to do walking octaves. For example, on the first bars of a C blues to do: C C Bb Bb | A A Ab Ab | G G F F | E D C F#| F either going low-high low-high or low-high high-low low-high, and then going into another walking pattern on bar 4. This makes a great addition on a climactic part of a solo. | |
| sid -- 03/07/2005, 12:37:13 -- #11729 | |
| This has to be one of the most interesting and useful threads for quite a while. It has shamed me into working on my lazy LH, which otherwise functions mostly to keep my wristwatch from falling on the floor. sid | |
| jazz jasper -- 03/07/2005, 14:08:14 -- #11732 | |
| What about walking tenths - if you can reach them, instead of octaves? Ive been trying it and it seems to give much more depth to the sound. | |
| marksdg -- 03/07/2005, 15:04:32 -- #11734 | |
| Actually, what I described earlier wasn't really walking octaves, but rather alternating octaves. Walking 10ths is really good, even just thrown in for a bar. If you can't reach the 10th you can swing the 10th: (C E) (D F) (E G) (F A) where each ( ) is a swing pair up a 10th. A walking 10th is really good in a blues on the bar right before the first lV chord. | |
| lutonomy -- 03/07/2005, 16:17:32 -- #11735 | |
| Tenths are one of the best things about the piano. I use them a ton in my solo piano work, but they can add a lot of character to walking bass too. Though if you're talking consectutive tenths at a fast tempo, it's pretty tough unless you've got huge hands or are Art Tatum. As far as the leading tones being "mostly" the half step above, I thought I'd add my two cents to that. I think the leading tone can be either from above or below, and either whole or half steps. It depends on the context, but I try to avoid "always" or "usually" doing anything as it can make things sound kind of stagnant. Half steps are definitely a stronger pull, but you don't always want a strong pull. Like I said, depends on the context on which things work best, but variety is always preferable to "just because" conventions. | |
| elwapo -- 03/07/2005, 16:20:51 -- #11736 | |
| This is really good stuff! Can I just ask lutonomy if would kind enough to give an axample of the 2 bar walking base line described. Would I be right in saying that if you had 2 bars of say C7 leading into say a G7 chord then you would play C G C G D Db C Ab (Then into G)? Or when you say "A change that lasts for 2 bars" do you mean there is more than one chord in those 2 bars.....Thanks in advance! EW | |
| lutonomy -- 03/08/2005, 01:53:13 -- #11752 | |
| elwapo, Your first example is what I meant, so yeah, a C7 chord that lasts for two bars. It's a great foundation to learn and really turned my walking bass lines into a strong element of my playing. Glad you're finding usefulness from it too! | |
| elwapo -- 03/08/2005, 03:52:29 -- #11758 | |
| Thanks Lutonomy! | |
| minor -- 03/08/2005, 07:18:02 -- #11762 | |
| Could anyone tell me how to play walking bass lines to a jazz waltz ? Do you play R-5-LT if the change lasts a hole bar and R-5-LT-R-5-LT if the change lasts 2 bars, ? Thanks in advance! minor | |
| marksdg -- 03/08/2005, 08:48:58 -- #11764 | |
| I usually do just a straight R-5-R on each bar for a jazz waltz, going from low to high, with sometimes doing something different like a leading tone. | |
| jazz jasper -- 03/08/2005, 18:48:21 -- #11789 | |
| Ive found that the 4th book (contemporary piano styles) by John Mehegan is really useful for solo piano. Its very detailed! Does anyone else have this book - What do they think? Jazz | |
| 7 -- 03/09/2005, 00:37:41 -- #11796 | |
| I have it, but I haven't looked at it in over 20 years. I seem to recall it had some stuff about quartals in it. Mehegan's books defined solo Jazz piano for an entire generation, and apparently continues to do so. | |
| beanabus -- 03/09/2005, 08:41:49 -- #11804 | |
| My take on Walking bass, which seems to do for now. Upbeat - play a chromatic approach tone to the next root Downbeat - play the root Strong beat (in the honkey sense of 1 and 3) - play a chord tone Any other beats - anything you like really. Chromatic tones, scles or arpeggios are all valid, as long as they move toward chord tones on the strong beats. So for a II-V-I, here are some examples: C-7 | F7 | BbM in 4 C D Eb E | F Eb C A | Bb C Ab G Gb | F G# A B | Bb in 3 C D# E | F C A | Bb etc Where chords change frequently -say Rhythm changes - you often have time only to play an appraoch tone and a root for each chord. As with classical counterpoint, these rules are made to be broken. Whyen I get bored with walking to what I think of as Ron Carter thing, where I repeat the root of the chord and then heavy accent a swung lead tone. It's hard to describe - listen to Ron! It's not walking bass, more like skipping bass. Pedals are great. Underused as a resource, I think. They allow the soloist (i.e. your right hand) a lot of freedom. With inversion, I use less notes - more like 2 a bar in four, or on the 1 and 3 of a waltz bar. Playing the third or seventh of a chord is partiularly solid. Remember this sort of thing: Bb / Bb/Ab / | Eb/G / Eb/Gb / | (From Muppet Show theme) Tritones and descending minor sixths sound funky. Use lots of chromaticism for harmonically active tunes. Use much less for modal stuff. Walk the mode for So What and similar tunes. A leading seventh sounds good when followed with a root. Try a ninth on the first beat of the bar. | |
| Gordon -- 03/09/2005, 17:43:53 -- #11815 | |
| what does "in the honkey sense of 1 and 3" mean ? | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/09/2005, 18:09:46 -- #11817 | |
| Could you please explain this a bit more: "When I get bored with walking to what I think of as Ron Carter thing, where I repeat the root of the chord and then heavy accent a swung lead tone. It's hard to describe - listen to Ron! It's not walking bass, more like skipping bass." | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/09/2005, 18:11:39 -- #11818 | |
| Here is the easiest walking pattern for ii V I. Do this in all 12 keys. Example in G: |: A B C C# | D C B A | G A B C | D C B Bb :| | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/09/2005, 23:07:06 -- #11821 | |
| That Kenny Barron "1 5 8 LT" (LT = leading tone) is nice but it's more of a "hopping bass" style than a "walking bass". "Walking" typicaly implies mostly stepwise scale type motion. I thought studntst would find the "1 5 8 LT" style easier but I noticed many had trouble with the fingering when the chord and postition changes. Perhaps scale walking requires less position changing and is easier to finger. I find scale walking easier at fast tempos than the hopping style. | |
| beanabus -- 03/10/2005, 10:21:59 -- #11826 | |
| Sorry that Ron Carter thing is just as clear as the freshly driven mud. You pay three pitches - the root of the first chord, a tone a semitone below the root of the next chord and the root of the next chord. So, for a V-I G7 C we play G B C 1 2 3 4 1 G G G B C The tone in beat 4 (in common time) should be accented in all walking bass lines. That third G is I think 'pushed' a little ahead of the swing, a little skip. It's hard to describe. Listen to Ron Carter - of course he's not the only one to do, but for some reason I associate that little 'skip' rhythm with his playing. On the bass, these accented upbeat appraoch tones are someties sounded by 'pull offs' to open strings which helps them siwing. It's also very natural to the guitar. Obviously,a pianist will just have to hit them a little harder to get a similar effect. Obviously the 2 and 4 should always be accented. The 1 and 3 I have heard called the honkey beats by a (white) trombonist, because of their prominence in classical music. In jazz, it's not the case, but audiences in the UK still clap along on the 1 and 3. when I say strong beats in a technical setting, I mean the classical strong beats - 1 and 3 (in common time.) However in jazz, 2 and 4 are accented. | |
| beanabus -- 03/10/2005, 10:23:03 -- #11827 | |
| Curses - it's messed up the alignment on my numbers. The C comes on the 1 of the next bar, the B on the 4 of the previous... | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/10/2005, 12:02:23 -- #11831 | |
| "we play G B C 1 2 3 4 1 G G G B C" Which beat is that third G on? The "+" of "3" or is it on "4" ? Which beat is B on? The "4" or is it on the "+" of beat 3? | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/10/2005, 12:03:10 -- #11832 | |
| CORRECTION: Which beat is B on? The "4" or is it on the "+" of beat 4? | |
| lutonomy -- 03/10/2005, 16:25:40 -- #11840 | |
| The Kenny Barron thing is harder than stepwise walking at first, but for me, I've found in the long run it's easier to do fast tempos and let it go on autopilot. I think this is because once you get it down, it puts your hand in position for the whole change, maybe more if it's a lot of ii-V's and stuff. But yes, initially it is tougher. Took me at least a few months to where I could do it okay, and a couple years at a steady gig playing duo with a sax player where I don't have to think about it anymore. And now it's kind of half and half with the "hopping" mixed with step-wise and little triplet ornaments and stuff. Actually, I have no idea what it is, since I haven't actually payed attention to it in awhile. The left just walks when it wants and I don't bother it... ;-) | |
| 7 -- 03/11/2005, 01:46:16 -- #11844 | |
| Looking at the line in "force message formatting" yields 1 2 3 4 1 G G G B C | |
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