LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Noodling

sdm -- 04/01/2005, 16:38:30 -- #12386

This question is for those of you who can play (especially the pros but not just) and can still remember not being able to (that should cut it down a bit!).   Beginning 30 years ago I've done something on the piano I call noodling (I suspect that's what everyone calls it...).  By this I mean just sticking my hands on the keys and seeing what comes out.  Over that time it's gotten so there are less mistakes (I can stay "in key" at any rate) and, particularly over the last year of heavy practice, it seems more musical, less sloppy, and generally more fun.   I guess you could call this playing by ear except that I'm not doing a tune, just, well, noodling.  My technical work really  improved the sound quality of this stuff but it's not music in the sense that anyone could follow it. At the same time, I have been taking lessons and trying to learn tunes.  Here I improvise over a know set of changes and the playing tends to sound much less developed.  I can't move with the freedom and still follow the changes or reflect the tune properly in most cases. Now, I've told myself for some time that one "result" I want out of practicing and lessons is a convergence of these two different kinds of playing.  When I'm noodling around, something I can do for hours on end, there is little in the way of conscious of intellectual activity going on.  I listen and have lots of fun, quick licks.  I'm also probably always in one key -- in my case Eb. I once heard Eddie Weed playing some really tasty stuff between tunes and one of the band members asked what he was playing.  "Oh, nothing" he said, "just noodling around."  Hmm, he can play and he noodles too -- cool. So, finally, the question.  Do those of you who can remember a time before you really felt you could play also remember something like this?  Is there value in this kind of playing?  Can I expect to ever get the same feeling of freedom while playing tunes with others? Damn I can be long winded.

signal11 -- 04/01/2005, 18:14:34 -- #12389

I'm not sure I'm one of those that can play, but I spend a considerable amount of time noodling as you describe. A lot of my noodling is related to things I'm studying in lessons.  For instance, I've recently been doing a lot of work with altered dominants and tritone substitutions so much of my noodling has involved that.  I'll just sit down and noodle around with it for an hour or so---just sort of messing around with one or two ideas in a random sort of way.  Personally, I find noodling to be extremely relaxing.  Just sit down and fool around for an hour with no particular goal in mind.  Sometimes it inspires a new tune as well.

sdm -- 04/01/2005, 18:48:38 -- #12390

Relaxing indeed.  I agree but go a bit further.  Usually I don't relate it, except subconsciously, to lessons because I pretty much release my thinking mind during that part of my play.  I will do as you say, fiddle around with a sub I've learned but then I'm "thinking" about what I'm playing and I allow myself to not do that when noodling.  I don't (yet maybe?) compose but I do see patterns in that free time that could be turned into tunes.

nn -- 04/01/2005, 22:06:24 -- #12392

Interesting. Try noodling over ii-V-I's (all 24 of them). You'll then feel "at home" over any set of changes. After a couple of years, that is.

Dr. Whack -- 04/01/2005, 23:46:13 -- #12393

In my opinion the answers to your questions are yes, yes and yes...I noodle all the time - especially as a quick warm-up

Scot -- 04/02/2005, 16:26:34 -- #12407

My entire style is derived from "noodling" on the piano for years in the practice rooms at the University of Washington.  But I never called it noodling, I just call it jamming or messing around. I would play grooves and other stuff for hours and hours. I'd come out of the practice room dripping with sweat.  A great Seattle jazzer named John Hansen was at the UW at the same time and he saw me after one of those sessions and said, "What the heck are you doing in there?!?" Marc Seales, my teacher, always got angry at me for doing that, though, because I'd spent 80% of my time composing and jamming on my compositions among other things and nly 20% of the time on the stuff he wanted me to do :) But yeah, it's a great way to simply get your fingers more and more in tune with the keyboard on the piano, you know?  It's like anything else- familiarity will help you. If you're a basketball player, you shoot around for hours. A tennis player hits balls against the wall.  Artists doodle on scraps of paper, writers grafittize their house (maybe not).  But it's all about being more and more comfy with the keyboard and noodling is a great way to do that because you can explore. Exploration is the route to discovery, right?  So noodle around as much as possible, explore things that are new to you, discover things that make you go "wow!" and get you psyched to play even more.

MRuth -- 04/03/2005, 11:45:21 -- #12422

Greetings to you all, First, I want to thank you Scott R. for such a marvelous place; I just found "LJP" about a month and half ago,and have been learning my way around.  Your generosity is appreciated over here! As a fellow Piscean, the whole subject of "noodling" is my way of learning things.....and your sharing and claiming that way of learning is validating. Using the holistic faculties of the brain's right hemisphere is not explored enough, and this  whole discussion is refreshing. Music is a natural expression of the "right brain." This goes along with what both (Jeff 7) and (Alberto) have discussed on using the whole brain and the subconscious mind. (Also thanks to both Jeff, Whacky, and Alberto for your insights, ideas, and the "midi" listening lessons. Thank you, Scott M. for this question about "noodling". Like you my quest and pursuit of playing this music started about 20 years ago.  At that point, I did not know one chord symbol from another. So, I spent my first ten years "noodling" and getting over my retience of being a woman with a "driven" hunger to play jazz because it so intricate, mysterious, fun, and exhilarating. I am still working on keeping the form of the tune, while improvising over the changes.......the "left brain" wants to take over, and starts dictating what is right and wrong.  So, "noodling" is helping me to find my own improvisational voice, and to further get beyond the retience I mentioned previously. What I am realizing is that "noodling" is a step toward/and in the improvisation process.  I am glad to know that I am not the only person with the "noodle gene".  Maybe it is in the DNA. Much appreciation to everyone, MR

Seaside_Lee -- 04/04/2005, 07:33:52 -- #12439

Hi sdm Wow...you've been doodling for 30 years...you must be great at it :) I love doodling myself and I don't want to teach you to suck eggs or anything but, here's some advice that you may or may not have already thought about?... If you've been playing for 30+ years then you must have a good idea of the basic structure of most songs ie...how many beats to a bar...now many bars, measures etc standard formats of songs (A, A, B, A etc.) And you must have recognised that many songs have very similar chord progressions to many. many other songs...right? So when you are doodling I think it is good to start simply thinking of structuring the doodling so it eventually resembles all the above that you  already know about songs does any of that make sense? Lee

piano paul -- 04/04/2005, 09:01:31 -- #12440

I like to noodle. Practising more changes, more keys, more idioms, more scales always seems to result in better noodling. Sometimes I get annoyed with myself noodling when I should be working on technique, or just working (I work from home mostly and noodling is a distraction)... But you've got to let rip with a good noodle every so often, and the way I see it, the more technically proficient you get, the more you are justified to noodle all you like and I'm sure the more enjoyable it all becomes. --- also: Does anyone know if I can change my user name on this site. Breakster is just my old yahoo email name - my surname is Breakwell. My first name's Paul, and I have been called Piano Paul in the past, so I  think that might be better. Or maybe 'Fingers' because I've got fingers a bit like E.T., though still never quite big enough for AbM bass tenths (are anyones?)

sdm -- 04/04/2005, 11:51:50 -- #12443

Breakster, trying going to "my settings" at the top and putting your handle in as an alias. Thanks all for the encouraging answers.  It does seem there is a relationship.  And, yes, as my "knowledge" gets better I do begin to see some of it showing up in the noodling.  Some things were there but I didn't know the theory behind them.  I think my recent understanding of the tri-tone sub may explain some of my use of chromatics in my left hand.  I also often view this as a distraction and just plain laziness on my part but I just can't do without it.   It was interesting last evening I was working painfully on some new voicings for Tea For Two.  The playing was tentative and hesitant.  In my frustration I finally let my hands and mind go.  It wasn’t Tea For Two or anything anyone could follow (hard to do this with others I’m thinking!) but what a difference in sound.  If I can get that sound into the realm of “knowing what I’m doing” I’ll be a happy camper.   Onward…

piano paul -- 04/04/2005, 12:16:06 -- #12445

Thanks sdm, let's see if it works...

piano paul -- 04/04/2005, 12:37:09 -- #12447

great, so I'll be Piano Paul from now on. sdm, I'm just an amateur tickler, learning jazz, so mine is only a humble view, but I've been listening to a live version of Brubeck's Take 5. It begins with the theme, then the group members take solos, and then it closes with the theme. Brubeck's piano solo doesn't sound much like take 5: it's very modal and full of arpeggios and big chords. It sounds great and I suppose he knew exactly what he was doing, but either way, after 24 bars  or so, he just drops the big syncopated left hand 5/4 again and we're back to familiar territory, the excursion is over. So I'm starting to think you can certainly get away with a lot of noodling if you wedge it between the book ends of a familiar progression or song. And by doing this you can convince yourself there's some order to the noodle as well. I only bought this CD on Friday, and it's the first really modern sounding jazz disc I have (I've been listening to lots of Fats Waller, Nat King Cole etc previously). It's amazing how contemporary this CD sounds. Most of the tracks are late seventies, early eighties, and they sound very fresh: Thelonius Monk, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea, Ellis Marsalis, Andy Laverne, also a Lionel Hampton vibes perfomance on there that sounds like it could have been recorded yesterday (he was one of the old school wasn't he?). I suppose the rest of it was recorded late seventies, early eighties. Anyway, I'm sure it's the NOODLING that keeps it fresh.

Seaside_Lee -- 04/04/2005, 16:48:30 -- #12460

I agree piano paul When playing solo piano...it is always a good idea to let your audience know what the tune is first ..once that is established you can noodle along within the rhythmic flow of the words and they should be able to kinda follow along and as long as you get back to the song at the end...they'll probably think you are a genious...and may pay you $$$$'s :)..which is kinda kool Lee

marksdg -- 04/04/2005, 18:07:17 -- #12461

piano paul, It seems like you are using the word noodling to just mean improvising.  I would generally think of noodling as playing around doing improvising as well as making up chords and rhythms.  Making stuf up within a tune with a defined chord progression I would think of as just improvising.

Scot -- 04/04/2005, 19:39:25 -- #12467

M Ruth- just out of curiosity, why did you say, "As a fellow Piscean..."

sdm -- 04/04/2005, 20:08:49 -- #12469

marksdg -- there is a difference.  Improvising, as you say, is creating over a known set of changes.  I'm talking about pretty much making the whole thing up so I think I agree with our definitions.  The added piece is that I have almost no idea (this is slowy changing) what key I'm in or what chord I'm playing.  I'm still able to play "in key" and keep it all pretty full.

Dr. Whack -- 04/04/2005, 23:47:57 -- #12472

"improvise" means to "make it up as you go"...you don't need chord changes to do that....therefore IMHO, noodling qualifies as improvising. Like Scot said: "it's a great way to simply get your fingers more and more in tune with the keyboard on the piano, you know?  It's like anything else- familiarity will help you." (that's why he makes the big bucks:)

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