Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: beginning to improvise -

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: beginning to improvise -
mco246 -- 05/12/2005, 14:37:20 -- #13756
Hi, I am very new to Jazz. I am having trouble with trying to improvise over non diatonic chords, i seem to get lost in what scale to adjust to. For example, in a MAJOR scale, assume the progression: / I Maj7 / iv min7 / v min7 / vi(b) maj7 / ii(b) maj7 / I maj 7 what are the most common/possible scales one can use? how would some of you improvise over this? Thanks a lot! Michael
Jazz+ -- 05/12/2005, 15:09:34 -- #13757
Why that progression? it doesn't look familiar or seem to be in any particular key. Anyways, here you go In C: C Maj7 (I) F-7 Dorian (iv) G-7 Dorian (v) Ab Maj7 Lydian (bVI) Db Maj 7 Lydian (bII)
mco246 -- 05/12/2005, 15:32:04 -- #13759
Thanks Jazz Can we disect it a little further? Lets take a look at the (iv) F-7 chord. Diatonically it should be an F maj7 chord (and one could use the C major scale to imrovise over it or the F Lydian I think..). But since its an F-7, you suggest Dorian mode.. Why the dorian?? and is it C dorian( realtive to parent scale) or F dorian? What are the actual notes?
Dr. Whack -- 05/12/2005, 15:53:58 -- #13760
F dorian is the second mode of the Eb major scale Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb F Notice that all the tones of the Fm7 are in that scale. If you arranged those notes in thirds you wold have an Fm13 F Ab C Eb G Bb D That's why a dorian scale is a safe bet for minor 7th chords
mco246 -- 05/12/2005, 16:25:10 -- #13762
the difference between F dorian and F natural minor is: The F dorian has a "D" note and F natural minor had a "Db" note. what would be more appropriate? So, if i undertand correctly for the chord: Ab Major7(Lydian)(bVI) One can use the notes: Eb F G [ A Bb C D Eb F G ] Thanks Dr.
Dr. Whack -- 05/12/2005, 17:08:54 -- #13765
Well, it boils down to what sounds good to you - modes and such are merely suggestions of tones that would not sound band - sometimes notes that don't sound good can be very useful:)
Mike -- 05/13/2005, 04:24:41 -- #13778
Another way of aproaching Chord Scales to that progression in the key of C: These are the scales I would use on the simplist level / I Maj7 --- C Maj 7 --- I LYDIAN ----- C lydian scale / iv min7 --- F minor 7 --- bIII lydian ---- Ab lydian scale / v min7 ---- G minor 7 ---- b iii Lydian --- Bb Lydian scale / vi(b) maj7 Ab maj 7 ---- I lydian ------ Ab lydian scale / ii(b) maj7 ---- Db maj 7 ---- I lydian---- Db lydian scale / I maj 7 C Maj 7 --- I LYDIAN ----- C lydian scale
savage -- 05/13/2005, 09:06:12 -- #13781
"the difference between F dorian and F natural minor is: The F dorian has a "D" note and F natural minor had a "Db" note. what would be more appropriate?" The Fm7 chord is borrowed from the key of C minor. That´s why the dorian scale is the better choice, since it has the same notes as the pure C minor scale. savage
Jazz+ -- 05/13/2005, 10:41:00 -- #13784
F Dorian has a "D" note, so does the key of C.
piano paul -- 05/13/2005, 10:48:33 -- #13785
Mike: " iv min7 --- F minor 7 --- bIII lydian ---- Ab lydian scale" Isn't this the same as saying F dorian? Is this a fully lydian-based approach where you are relating the fm back to it's relative major and then using the lydian of that? I'm just interested in the thinking. Is there a benefit to looking at it that way?
mco246 -- 05/13/2005, 12:40:19 -- #13793
Guys, Thanks so much for the feedback and help! I am realy enjoying the discussion. Michael.
Mike -- 05/14/2005, 02:52:13 -- #13814
Piano Paul: The notes end up being the same in Ab lydian as in F dorian. But it is completely different for me because I organize my melodic concepts for improvisation as best I can acording to the teachings of George Russell and the lydian Chromatic Concept. I understand George Russells teachings well enough to apply a lot of it, but not well enough to teach very much of it. But as far as minor 7 chords go... When ever I see a minor 7 chord I immediatly recognize the flatted third as the "parent lydian tonic". Basically that means that the Lydian scale begining on the minor third will be the safest most consonant scale choice for improvisation (my words not George Russels) On a more advanced level however and with much more practice it also immediatly makes available to me 12 other member scales for melody making with varing levels of disonance. (again disonance being my choice of word). That is why it is essential for me to think of the scale of Ab Lydian and not as F Dorian. I have completely reorganized my way of thinking of chord scales in this way not because I like to call the scales Lydian. It is by no means a question of semantics. There are 12 other scales begining on the note Ab that I sometimes use to improvise ont hat chord in that situation, I just gave you the most basic safest choice which happens to be one that has the same notes as the F Dorian scale. Also I am not as you say "relating the fm back to it's relative major" That is not how it works. I simply know and have memorized that the flated third is the parent lydian tonic of any minor 7 chord according to George Russels Theorys as outlined in his book "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization."
Mike -- 05/14/2005, 03:01:53 -- #13815
Post script: After learning George Russells theories it is the sort of thing that bumms me out that I did not learn it 20 years ago. It seems so infantile to me now that I used to think of D Dorian as the scale choice for a D minor 7 chord. But I still teach the basic Dorian,phrygian,lydian,mixolydian mode systym for scale choice to all my students becuase I know they will have to know this antiquated inferior system to be able to communicate with other musicians ot these times. So i suggest the same for you. To jump right into George Russell with out learning the flawed inferior system first might be problematic and isolating as far as communicating with others go, Even though it will make you a superior creator of melodies. It would be a little like teaching a 2 year old child Giant STeps insead of"Mary had a little Lamb" just because they were capable of it. I for one would not do that. If I had such a prodigy student I would still begin with Mary had a little Lamb. No one will be accusing me of creating a Michael Jackson. .... Have I ranted enough for tonight?
piano paul -- 05/14/2005, 04:04:41 -- #13816
Mike, I thought you might be talking about the lydian chromatic concept... I have heard of this before. I had a quick jam yesterday over the chords at the top of this thread, using your suggested scale material and it sounded very nice indeed. I am interested in the lydian approach, but I'm on another tack at the moment and so I will look at it properly later. As a matter of interest when you say it is a superior system, what grounds is this based on - is it not just a different approach, which you prefer? Is there a fundamental reason it is 'superior'? Does it encompass suggestions for chord progressions, or is it more a system for improvising over standards etc? So many questions... so little time...
Mike -- 05/14/2005, 11:30:39 -- #13819
I believe there are fundamental reasons it is superior ... yes. I believe it is much more than just a different approach which I prefer. However the fundamental reasons are not simplistic and require reading the text book as a minimum to understand what the fundamental reasons are and then still many do not get it.. so any attempt by me to teach it would certainly be futile. It is literally as the title says a "concept of tonal organization" No it is not a system for Harmonic Organization or chord progressions. With in the terminology you are using I would say it is fair to say it is a system for widening ones creative choices for improvising over chord progressions.
piano paul -- 05/16/2005, 03:16:04 -- #13857
Thanks for the information Mike, I'll definitely buy the book now. I'm only amateur but I'd like to learn in the best way possible. This reminds me of something I heard about ancient astronomers. I can't remember names and details, but the old Greek guys used a system of concentric spheres, to predict star movement. These imaginery concentric spheres revolved around the Earth. The astronomers could use the system to accurately predict star positions years in advance. Each time a new star was discovered though, they had to create a new sphere for it, and do another set of calculations. So eventually the system got very complicated indeed. But it still worked. Then Galileo (or whoever it was) came along and set them all straight. He pointed out that earth revolves around the sun. Although with this new information it would have taken a lot of calculation to get up to the point the traditional system was already at, it would then make everything much easier in the future.
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