LearnJazzPiano.com archives: When to use Alt chords?

mcbean76 -- 06/02/2005, 15:51:06 -- #14458

Hi all, I've been lurking on this great site for a couple of months now... and I finally have a legitimate question for you guys ;-) I'm going through Levine's great Piano Book and I'm learning about Alt chords. I understand the theory behind them, and I've been practicing them somewhat, but I'm not sure when to use them. The Real Book I'm using (the "sixth edition" from Hal Leonard) never mentions Alt chords and rarely has chords with alterations that would imply an alt chord (like G7#9b13, or in this book, they would say G7#5#9).  Now I'm sure a lot of dominant chords can be substituted with Alt chords, but how do you figure out which ones are best suited? I see plenty of dominant sevenths with one alteration (like #9 or #5). Are those good candidates to subsitute with an Alt chord? I'll be curious to hear any insight anyone may have on this... Thanks, Jean

marksdg -- 06/02/2005, 18:21:40 -- #14468

Alt chords work really well on almost any dominant chord, but it depends on the style you are playing in.  I don't think you would use many alt chords on traditional gospel playing, for example.   Also, keep in mind that an alt chord doesn't  have to have tons of notes. For C7alt you could just do  (Bb, Eb, E, G#)  which has the #5 and #9.

albetan -- 06/03/2005, 10:40:45 -- #14488

Altered seventh chords may be used sometimes as substitutes of dominant seventh chords, as Marksdg suggests. When you play those chords you are working in a more advanced harmony. See file "Altered Seventh chords" at Albetan's Area.

Dr. Whack -- 06/03/2005, 11:27:47 -- #14492

To me alt chords are not a big deal.  It just means the chord has been altered - for example a G7 would have the notes GBDF, if you sharp the 5th, it has been altered  - just a way to add a little more dissonance:) So, what are you to do  with this?  When you see alt in the chord symbol, it kind of becomes "fielder's choice" as to what tones you'd like to alter - usually 5ths and 9ths, flatte or sharped, or both at the same time. (G7#5 b5 #9 b9 - very cool dissonant cluster)

orson -- 06/03/2005, 12:23:49 -- #14495

To follow up on Albetan's post, rootless voicings for Alt chords like the one suggested by marksdg can also be voicings for the tritone sub (F# for C7), so if you don't play the root, there is an interesting ambiguity that can be resolved by the other players.

Dr. Whack -- 06/03/2005, 13:20:17 -- #14497

sometimes they just boil down to whole tone clusters...

Scot -- 06/03/2005, 14:28:57 -- #14498

One of the best ways to know when an "alt" works well is when a melody note in the tune you are playing is altered. Sometimes the chord symbol will say flat five, or alt, or something else, but if you look at the melody and see what has been altered it can usually tell you whatever you want to know. To use it in your own stuff or to throw them in, just look for areas where you can create tension and release with the altered note. The easiest would be something like this as in a C7sus chord resolving to something with less tension: 1st chord: RH: D G Bb LH: C F Bb 2nd chord: RH: Db G Bb LH: C E Bb Keith Jarret does this stuff all the time in his solo playing. Just more food for thought.

scotward57 -- 06/03/2005, 23:47:39 -- #14516

An alt chord is really a tame tri-tone sub. Example: the upper harmonics of a G7Alt (Ab=b9, Bb=#9, Db=b5, Eb=#5) are  the (Ab=5th, Bb=13th, Db=Root, Eb=9th) of a Db7. So an Alt chord is not all that difficult to remember.

7 -- 06/04/2005, 01:32:25 -- #14517

There's a little more to it than that: http://Jeff-Brent.com/Lessons/altered.html

Jazz+ -- 06/04/2005, 02:24:19 -- #14520

ALT work best only on: V7 alt III7 alt (Someday My Prince Will Come) VII7 alt (E.S.P.) Use "7 #4" chords for all the others: bII7, II7, IV7, #IV7, bVI7, bVII

Jazz+ -- 06/04/2005, 02:24:50 -- #14521

I left out that ALT also works well on VI7

Kai -- 06/04/2005, 06:32:57 -- #14529

With alt chords, generally, I would choose to listen to where the tune is going and/or to consider other musicians that I may be playing with.

SolArt -- 06/08/2005, 16:24:55 -- #14776

Look/listen at the melody, listen to the other musicians if there are any. Otherwise use your ears, do you like the SOUND of the ALT you are playing? If not try another. Sometimes it's difficult to choose between say a couple you like, but each  one has it's own character & evokes a certain feeling.

Jazz+ -- 06/08/2005, 20:56:30 -- #14784

When playing standards, here is the rule: ALT work best on: V7 VI7 III7 (Someday My Prince Will Come) VII7 (E.S.P.) Use "Dominant 7 #11" chords for all the other cases: bII7, II7, IV7, #IV7, bVI7, bVII

Dr. Whack -- 06/09/2005, 10:28:30 -- #14799

Jazz+, Please be careful calling that a "rule".  It may be how you think about it, but it is certainly not a rule.  Sometimes it seems silly to argue about termonolgy, but when we are teaching, termonolgy is a very important issue.  (IMO) Secondly, I would consider  a "dom 7#11" and ALT chord.  If you do not, can you explain your reasoning? Can you explain the difference between the two? Thanks, DW

jazzlover -- 06/10/2005, 21:43:36 -- #14898

Use "altered" chords ONLY when the dominant 7th is resolving to a Tonic (major or minor) with the 2 following exceptions: 1) when going to something substituting for a tonic chord -- such as IIIm7 2) when the progression is going around (the cycle of 4ths) like in a turnback.

Dr. Whack -- 06/10/2005, 23:53:21 -- #14907

3)when the sound of it makes you go "oooh - ahhh" :)

jletourn -- 06/11/2005, 16:45:49 -- #14950

Look -- there are "alt" chords and there are "alt" chords.  The alt scale which the cookbook authors like to spell out includes no unaltered ninth or fifth -- e.g., in G, the scale would be G Ab A# B C Db D# E F G.  It's a purely synthetic scale which some argue is used widely, and others argue is used hardly at all.   A major problem in identifying its use in improvisation is that in order to analyze a given line as using the "alt scale" (tm) convincingly, one would need to see both the altered fifth (diminished *and* augmented) and the altered ninth (both alterations as well) present, in addition to the absence of the perfect fifth and the unaltered ninth.  Most any line which doesn't contain *just* those elements would certainly be susceptible to simpler (better) analysis. It's a wild set of notes -- I enjoy the sound, personally -- but I haven't seen any compelling evidence that it's something that arises in practice with any frequency.

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