Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: classical - should student start with before jazz

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: classical - should student start with before jazz
jazzwanabee -- 06/06/2005, 15:04:26 -- #14666
Hi all, I spoke to a potential instructor and she mentioned that I should get at least 6 months instruction in classical piano before getting into jazz. According to her learning jazz as your first piano study is like taking calculus before Algebra. Personally I disagree but what do you guys think?
marksdg -- 06/06/2005, 15:06:07 -- #14667
I disagree. While I started with classical, I really don't think it is necessary to start with. I started my son doing jazz and classical at the same time.
7 -- 06/06/2005, 15:29:38 -- #14669
I disagree completely. Formal education IS of course necessary. Dr. Billy Taylor states that "Jazz is American Classical Music". If you accept the notion that Jazz is (at the very least) equal to Classical music, then you must also accept that a Jazz education is (at the very least) equal to Classical music. Also, I am living proof that anyone can begin with Jazz, circumvent the "Classical education", and become a professional musician. There are many courses that begin at Book One Lesson One with an eye towards Jazz. "Formal education" does NOT necessarily equal "Classical education".
7 -- 06/06/2005, 15:31:48 -- #14670
Correction: a Jazz education is (at the very least) equal to Classical music. That should read: a Jazz education is (at the very least) equal to a Classical education.
CynBad -- 06/06/2005, 16:01:33 -- #14674
I believe the person meant that one should learn the basics of how to play one's instrument before starting to learn jazz. This is often referred to as "Classical lessons". It's really "Basic Piano Lessons". You aren't going to become a classical pianist in 6 months anyway.
Dr. Whack -- 06/06/2005, 16:15:34 -- #14675
You need to take lessons on your instrument (piano lessons) however, depending on the person, I see no reason why you can't include jazz concepts into a beginner's lessons. It's funny the word "classical" has become a term with weird, pretensious connotations:) It's really just another period of pop music. Perhaps the term is used to describe formal education, but music is music, written or improvised. When taking lessons why not grab it all?
betogar -- 06/06/2005, 16:24:36 -- #14676
Hi from Colombia I'm sure you can study jazz and classical piano simultaneously. ，fter all, our western tempered music system has only 12 notes! Medieval modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc...) of the 16th century come from ancient Greece, (before BC),but those scales weren't a good choice to compose in 18th century. In the late 19th century, national composers (Liszt, Chopin, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Smetana, Grieg and other)re-discovered the enchant of this scales, and it was refresching for music. So, the real matter is: since we have only 12 notes in our system, the only thing that have changed is the way we think about them. In Mozart music you have sevenths that are supossed to be resolved (a G7 chord D-F-G-B-D leads you to a C chord C-E-G-C. You can delay the resolution of the seventh, but after all the dissonance should be moved to a conssonance.In popular music, 20th and 21th centuries, you may choose to maintain the seventh interval on the C chord, making a nice chord, CMaj7. This is just an example. We have among us important piano players that first played classical, and they turned to jazz (see Jacques Loussier playing Bach in jazz, or Friedrich Gulda improvising on a 12 bar blues). On the other hand, Chick Corea have recorded Mozart's piano concertos, Keith Jarret have recorded the Bach's suites for harpsichord. Gershwin is a perfect example of the two sides of the question. Just open your mind, your ears, and try to get the style according to the music you are playing at the moment.
CynBad -- 06/06/2005, 17:01:56 -- #14679
A couple of points: 1. Dr. Whack, "classical" music is not merely another period of pop music. Contemporary classical music is being composed as we speak. It's a weird name for it, but I don't know what else we would call it. 2. If we go back to the original message -- it's my opinion that this instructor simply does not want to teach beginners. There are a lot of jazz teachers like that. They don't want to have to teach you beginning piano, but they are quite willing to teach you beginning jazz, if you already have basic piano skills.
Dr. Whack -- 06/06/2005, 19:16:25 -- #14681
Hmmm...I've never heard the term "Contemporary Classical". That is weird. Why not call it simply Contemporary? (whoops, maybe in another thread or on another message board:)
sdm -- 06/06/2005, 19:17:45 -- #14682
Have to agree with Dr. W on "classical." Many, if not most, of the classical (let's call them historical) composers did indeed provide the popular music of their days. Remember, there was no electronic media or movies. People (yes, normally the upper classes) sat around in their drawing rooms playing and listening to "classical" music much as we watch TV. It is unfortunate that "serious" music -- what we call classical -- is so removed from most of the population today.
Dr. Whack -- 06/06/2005, 19:28:35 -- #14683
Cynbad, Is this Contemporary Classical" music, music that is composed in the style of the Classical period? hence the name?? ~ just curious
shrock -- 06/06/2005, 19:51:31 -- #14684
sdm, people of today do not listen to beetoveen etc. We all listen to contemporary music whether jazz, blues, hip hop, rap, pop etc. That is why most of us want to play contemporary piano. If u take guitar, trumpet, sax lessons, the teachers teach you whatever style you want to learn, but it isnt that way for piano.
orson -- 06/06/2005, 19:54:15 -- #14685
If cynbad is thinking of what I am thinking, the answer is contemporary classical may or may not be composed in the style of the classical period depending on the composer. Many of the same forms are used (symphonies, operas, string quartets etc.). However, modern composers are not necessarily trying to emulate mozart and beethoven, they typically use modern and/or innovative melodies, harmonies, instrumentation, etc. If you are interested in a challenging listening experience, a great radio program on cbc radio 2 is "two new hours", which presents the works of current composers, Sundays at 10 pm eastern time. Its a great show! http://www.cbc.ca/2newhours/ http://www.cbc.ca/listen/index.html
orson -- 06/06/2005, 20:02:13 -- #14687
It is very difficult to hear this type of music live, because it is difficult to sell tickets. Most people who go to see a symphony orchestra want to listen to familiar classical music, not modern composers. Similar problem for radio programs.
Scot -- 06/06/2005, 21:50:46 -- #14693
As for the topic at hand, I agree with someone up there who said that it's important to take some piano lessons. You don't have to learn classical music. However, one of the reasons why you might want to take classical lessons along with your jazz studies is because classical music can help you develop your technique and musicality. Classical piano pieces put your hands in positions that you would not normall do when creating arrangements for your tunes or reading some jazz piano arrangements. In any event, it's very important to take piano lessons when starting out, classical, jazz, pure technical, doesn't matter. Your teacher will save you some pain in the future by teaching how to play the keys correctly. If you develop bad habits because you taught yourself or a teacher did not teach you correctly, you will wind up with things like shoulder tendoniting, elbow problems, carpal tunnel, etc etc...
Dr. Whack -- 06/06/2005, 22:12:27 -- #14695
Another very important reason to study the works of the historical composers is that the wrote FOR the piano - and they were masters of the art form. What better way to learn how to play, write for and improvise on the instrument? sorry about the dangling prepositions:)
mynameis -- 06/06/2005, 22:43:45 -- #14696
Im the real slim shady!
hepcatmonk -- 06/07/2005, 01:26:23 -- #14699
Hm...this is a tricky dillema. Beginning 'classical lessons' don't usually start with Bach or Mozart...they start with learning to read the notes, proper posture, and proper technique. However....this is how I feel. I myself was classically trained before playing a note of jazz. In my opinion...when we play jazz, we're improvising everything. We're training ourselves to send messages directly from our brain to our hands. I feel that with a lot of students, learning to play written out things from music, regardless of classical or pop, whatever...is really beneficial. You're sending THOSE messages (on the page) to your fingers...if you can do that well, that really eases the technical gap from sending messages created by your ears and brain to your finers...does this make sense? it seems confusing to me. Like Scot said, classical music gives you a lot of different ideas about textures, and voicings...these people were exploring the textural possibilities of the instrument completely. Learn some of that, and learn to apply it to your music. Anything you play on the piano can give you a creative spark you can apply to jazz. It's good to approach jazz with a large background with a lot of exposure to a lot of different kinds of music. A lot of Herbie's and Chick's ideas come from Bartok, especially their harmonies. Think of that. Even though we're studying jazz piano, and other people are studying classical, we're all learning THE PIANO. Whatever you study, try to learn to be technically accomplished on the instrument...learn from someone who is a great "player of the piano" who can guide you to have the technique that will allow your ideas to have no boundaries, and your playing to be free of tension. In my experience, the people who have the best knowledge of this are players who have studied classical piano extensively. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be prejudiced, but I think this may be the case. From there, study jazz and the sky's the limit. Like my teacher said..."There's no reason to throw away 300 years of piano playing tradition just because we're playing jazz."
Mike -- 06/07/2005, 01:47:01 -- #14702
I started with Jazz. Played proffessionally, earned a living and went to Bazerkly College of Music all before studying any Classical Music at all. I did not learn any Classical music at all until one year after i was a Pro for about 15 years People kept telling me I needed a hobby and a winter sport. To this day I think of Classical Music as a Winter Sport. When the first snow falls and all the kids are taking out their sleds and mittens you can see me getting my Bach off the Bookshelves and starting out just like I did many years ago with the First lessons.
d3dy -- 06/07/2005, 02:05:55 -- #14704
Why don't you swing Czerny's Op.299? it would be a nice bebop lines... Mozart Bach Bethoven Were all Improvising....... Chopin Fantasie in C#m has so many nice passing tones and altered chord....
Scot -- 06/07/2005, 02:21:30 -- #14705
There were all great improvisers, and one of the reasons they were great is that they had full command of the keyboard. Regardless of what kind of music you want to play, you need full command of the keyboard and piano lessons are a good way of doing it unless you have the discipline to practice the kind of stuff you need to in order to get that mastery of keyboard.
jazzvirtuoso -- 06/07/2005, 10:40:09 -- #14713
"In my experience, the people who have the best knowledge of this are players who have studied classical piano extensively. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be prejudiced, but I think this may be the case." Yea, I agree, all the greats that I knew either were already imersed in the classics or eventually did so. From what I gather there are no exceptions. Oscar Peterson: Studeied with hungarian pianist paul de marky I think studied bach, chopin and even scrabian. Art tatum: Mingled with people like horowitz and a few others Chick Corea, herbie, keith, bud powell, you name them and they have studied and listened intenly to classical music. Now I dont mean that they are world class concert pianists, but you bet your life on it they can surley play those tunes. This next part is going to sound bad, but whenever I meet a pianist who hasnt studied the great masters i can immediately tell. And most of the jazz folks who haven't studied classical seem to get irritated when I ask them this question. but, quite a few have. Like scott said a while back you have to be willing to play just about everything when your a pro player. JV'
CynBad -- 06/07/2005, 12:00:19 -- #14718
"Classical" music is often referred to as "serious" or "art" music, which I don't think is fair because plenty of jazz is "serious art" as well. Dr. Whack, just to clarify, contemporary "classical" composers include people like George Crumb, Lucas Foss, John Cage and Philip Glass, just to name a few. And they really aren't all that contemporary anymore. I haven't kept up with what's going on with modern composers, so I can't name the most current ones for you.
Styles -- 06/07/2005, 12:02:35 -- #14719
Like mentioned above- it's all PIANO. So take PIANO lessons: I was lucky enough to find a piano teacher that is very open minded and incredibly cultured. As a result, I've played everything from Classical, Baroque, New Age, Jazz, Blues, Hymns, Broadway, 70's & 80's rock, American Song(Bernstein, Hammerstein). Recently I've been looking through foreign composers to see how they use their native sounds in music and jazz ecspecially. So if you decide to take lessons, it is important to find a good teacher who teaches MUSIC. For example, check out Dave Brubeck's "Blue Rondo A la Turk" to hear how a variety of influences makes for accessible, refreshing, and just good music. pz
Jazz+ -- 06/07/2005, 12:26:07 -- #14721
You need to learn: GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF PLAYING A PIANO (if that is what is meant by "classcial")
7 -- 06/07/2005, 13:33:13 -- #14726
Jelly Roll Morton was not Classically trained. Neither was James P. Johnson, nor Fats Waller. And those guys never made any contribution at all to Jazz, did they? Django Rheinhardt was not Classically trained. Charlis Parker was not Classically trained. Gene Krupa was not Classically trained. If your snobbery inists that the only route to Jazz is through Classical, then it is tatmount to saying that Jazz is an inferior art form. Jazz is just another form of secular folk music, isn't it then?
CynBad -- 06/07/2005, 13:41:58 -- #14727
7, Those people may not have been "classically trained", but they certainly took lessons to learn how to play their instruments. No one here is saying you have to be classically trained. We are saying you need to learn to play your instrument. Let's stop getting hung up on terminology. Back to the topic of this thread -- let me reiterate that this teacher simply does not want to teach beginners how to play the piano.
JayBrooks -- 06/07/2005, 14:16:54 -- #14729
Also 7, none of the guys you mentioned have been active (or alive) for about the last 50 years or so. And lets face it -- the game has changed a bit since then. Not that I'm an expert, but today's pro needs a wider pallette of technical skills (tone production, knowledge of textures, etc.) then the archaic masters you mention. Unless of course you're just talking about sheer speed, which we would all do well to acknowledge as but one of many components of true musical technique. And no, it's not that the only route to Jazz is through Classical, but why limit ourselves?
ziggysane -- 06/07/2005, 16:00:02 -- #14731
Ah...but I would counter by saying that Jelly Roll (a fantastic sight reader in his prime), James P. Johnson, Willie The Lion and Fats Waller were all well versed in the classical repertoire, even though they had not recieved "strict" classical training. And Mingus has noted that Parker was very interested in the classical music of his day, particularly Stravinsky. My point would be that, while one does not have to use classical literature as the sole source for building technique, it doesn't hurt you at all to study it anyway, right?
jazzvirtuoso -- 06/07/2005, 23:42:36 -- #14735
INFLUENCES ON WILLIE THE LION: Well, you have to recognize that the musicians that were in that group all came under the influence of James Reese Europe. James Reese Europe was very adamant about playing some of the classical music of the time. People who worked with him at that time, Will Marion Cook, Will Vodery. Many of those people had classical training. Will Marion Cook was a classical violinist. So they knew and had performed, they were trained as concert artists and concert composers. Composers of concert music. So they knew the forms, they knew the music, they knew the great masters of Europe. [�] And so that music was in the air in New York. You heard people in the cabarets playing what they call light classical music in those days. DICK HYMAN𡟙nterviewed 1/4/99 Said this about willie the lion and james P Johnson: ON THE SOLO PIANO AND CLASSICAL TRADITIONS IN WILLIE㷧 PLAYING Willie the Lion came out of a tradition, first of all of solo piano playing. He was not the sort of pianist who developed later on who would expect to have a bass and drum and guitar playing along with him. He was very independent and even when later on he played with rhythm sections, he acted as though he was all by himself. He went on his own way very forcefully. He was always a solo pianist. Another strand of tradition for the Lion was that he and his colleague James P. Johnson, prided themselves on being knowledgeable about classical music, and it shows in their playing. And they made a big distinction between what they played and what for example, blues and boogie-woogie pianists at that time, played. There was no question that Willie the Lion was a much more classically trained performer. JV'
Jazz+ -- 06/07/2005, 23:56:26 -- #14736
"According to her learning jazz as your first piano study is like taking calculus before Algebra." Agreed. "Jazz" piano does not really have beginner "method" books for covering GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF PLAYING THE PIANO. Faber & Faber (best), Bastion, Alfred and Aaron all have method books that teach the basics reading, counting, fingering, etc. They cover the basics of learning to read and proper technique.
7 -- 06/08/2005, 02:41:32 -- #14739
Geez, I guess I went about it all wrong. My very first piano teacher played with Swing bands and taught me all the 30s standards and techniques including LH walking 10ths, Shearing style block chords, how to read charts and fake books, improvising, and substitute chords. With my second teacher, we went through the Joplin book cover to cover along with things like Eubie Blake's "Charleston Rag" and Zez Confrey's "Kitten on the Keys". Then I started doing Fats Waller transcriptions by ear and studying Art Tatum. By 18 years old I was gigging regularly, and in my twenties I was touring Europe with some of the finest unknown Jazz musicians I've ever met. I guess I really wasted my time learning algebra before calculus. That's why I'm a hopeless hack and you're all rich and famous.
7 -- 06/08/2005, 02:45:14 -- #14740
Make that "I really wasted my time learning calculus before algebra".
7 -- 06/08/2005, 02:54:46 -- #14741
And if somebody had told me back then that I had to learn Classical before learning Jazz, I would've never bothered. There is only so much time to prepare yourself for what life will throw at you, so you prioritize - my priority was to learn Jazz, so that's what I studied. Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Rock? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Blues? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Funk? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Salsa? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Disco? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Pop? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Country & Western? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Bluegrass? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Irish Folk? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn R&B? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Chinese music? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Arabic music? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn Reggae? Is it necessary to learn Classical in order to learn any other style of music except Jazz?
Mike -- 06/08/2005, 03:11:23 -- #14742
It is necessary to learn a historical form of music now extinct, composed by foreigners, europeans when my own country has its own form of music that is still alive, challenging and in every way at least as pleasing to me? I dont think so. I think I'll take a gander at it when and if I feel like it.
pringe -- 06/08/2005, 07:30:41 -- #14744
I belive it is, because this was the basis of all musical development. Every form of music today owes to the development of music in every sense up to today. I dont believe any style is exclusive - they all borrow aspects from each other. Without classical music and its development we wouldnt even have the tempered scale, let alone the harmonic grounding that we all hark on about as Jazz players. If you are to be a complete rounded musician who is going to survive in today's contemporary world (not just by playing in a band that 'makes it', or by being one of the very few greats) you need to pay your dues to the composers and styles before you. I have listened to and absorbed / studied many different styles, and whilst I am not an expert at many of them, I have understood and learnt their stylistic language so that, if called upon, I could play competently in this way. ....which brings us very off topic because the next logical question is "where are Jazz's boundaries?" when does Jazz become Funk / Reggae, Dance, World Music, Country & Western etc. Of course, you shouldn't put it in boxes, which is why you need to learn MUSIC!!!
pringe -- 06/08/2005, 07:33:02 -- #14745
One more thing Mike - it depends on your definition of Jazz and what you play as that...look at EST with their counterpoint LH piano / bass figures as a basis for improvisation over. He felt he needed to learn Bach et al.'s language in order to find his voice.
JayBrooks -- 06/08/2005, 09:04:34 -- #14747
No need to get so defensive, 7. We all have different approaches and ways of doing things that we're simply recommending to others because they've worked for us. That doesn't mean that other approaches are wastes of time. I mean, I've never transcribed the Freddie the Freeloader solo, for instance, despite all the recommendations on this site, so I guess I'm just a hopeless hack as well?? And Mike, as to the necessity of learning classical music this day and age -- I think you're right in that a lot of it is extinct and not directly related to what we as jazz pianists often do. HOWEVER, I would like to reiterate what I thought was a very interesting point Scot made long ago. Someone asked how he could learn to play like Scot, and Scot responded with something like, 'don't study my playing -- study the players I've studied'. Similarly, to the extent that elements of classical music have been employed by today's masters (e.g., Herbie, Chick, Jarrett, EST, etc.), I believe we would do well to study the sources of these influences, rather than limiting ourselves to their particular manifestations in jazz contexts by these particular players.
Mike -- 06/08/2005, 09:32:03 -- #14749
I have nothing against studying classical music, in fact at some point or another I assign all my students a healthy diet of Bach. I object to anyone saying you need it. As if classical music has something better or more to offer than Jazz, which it does not.
pringe -- 06/08/2005, 10:16:34 -- #14750
I would say you need to have been exposed to as many different musical styles and should be aware of the development of music in general. Jazz can be a very sensitive and spiritual music, and if this necessitates the study of classics then so be it. In my opinion it improves your technique better and more completely than the majority of popular exercises used by Jazz musicians (although of course there will always be an exception). Personally I have been going through the Well-Temp.Clav. quite comprehensively as well as looking at the harmonies of Brahms/Chopin etc and it has done wonders for me. Also, to me harmony isnt just about playing a bunch of chords (albeit with altered notes etc.) over a tune. The player should be aware of inner voice movements, be familiar with playing counter melodies to the line (between the hands if needed) etc....this is all routine in the classics. When I have seen the approach purely jazz-taught players take to playing, it is different from that taken by those who also have a thorough grounding in the classics study. Like I said I believe you should be aware of as much music as possible.
Jazz+ -- 06/08/2005, 10:34:56 -- #14751
For beginners it doesn't matter what style they play. Imagine a five year old with litle or no rhythmic or finger control yet developed. What matters for that level is developing the most basic fundimental techniques of physically playing a piano. The "classical" approach, NOT meaning the repetoire, is where the student routinely practices scales, learns counting, note recognition, and technique. The jazz tradition does not offer such a sytem of discipline. Jazz borrows directly from "classical", ie. scales, fingering, reading.
CynBad -- 06/08/2005, 11:13:22 -- #14752
Jazz+, you just hit the nail on the head. I don't know what all the fuss is about. The teacher just meant that one should learn the basics of playing the instrument before beginning to specifically study jazz. That is that one teacher's opinion, because that one teacher does not feel like teaching beginners.
jazzvirtuoso -- 06/08/2005, 11:53:53 -- #14756
"Without classical music and its development we wouldnt even have the tempered scale, let alone the harmonic grounding that we all hark on about as Jazz players" Excellent! JV'
Styles -- 06/08/2005, 12:10:17 -- #14757
Learning both works for me Studying classical music in addition to jazz has several benefits: 1. You can play much faster and have better technical ability 2. Your mind works more coherently when improvising 3. Classical has many more polyrythms. So when you are improvising your left hand has a tendency to not only set a chordal foundation for the right hand, but also move with the right hand. Or against. Or add a completely different melody at the same time. 4. Master the little things like tone quality, dynamics, phrase composition, and bringing out high points and low points in phrases. Find what works for you man, but don't limit your education.
7 -- 06/08/2005, 12:30:28 -- #14760
"Jazz" piano does not really have beginner "method" books for covering GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF PLAYING THE PIANO. I stated earlier in this post that there existed beginners books for learning the rudiments of music with a total Jazz slant, yet Jazz+ states categorically that they do not exist. Yes, they do exist and I have worked with them. Once the student has a handle on the lesson at hand the comping that the teacher does is funky, bluesy or modal etc. It introduces little kids to the concept of ii-V-I in the middle of the first beginner book! I think it's called "Jazz Piano for Kids" or something like that, and they start out at page one lesson one. It's a decent series (I've never found ANY beginners book yet that I can say is GREAT). They don't carry it anymore at the store where I teach, but I'll try to find out the exact name of the series and report back. Also, for players with even a minimum of knowledge there are hundreds of "Jazz Pattern" books out there to rival the boring Hanon/Czerny exercises.
7 -- 06/08/2005, 12:34:23 -- #14761
Styles, You opinion matters little to me now, because I tried that exercise you suggested to Mike and I severly injured my back attempting it.
Jazz+ -- 06/08/2005, 12:49:07 -- #14762
My Google search did not find a "Jazz Piano for Kids" beginning piano method book. Please direct me to a link or some reviews. Again, at the beginning level it does not matter what style is being played. What matters is a very carefuly and thoughtfuly designed method that can gradualy increase the learning of counting, fingering technique and note recognition. I have taught over 2000 students and have discovered that the Faber & Faber series work best for beginners. They use very nice tunes: a mix of classics, folk, Irish, pentatonic, New Age, pop, swing, ragtime, rock and blues. Faber & Faber even has "Jazz" performance books, but the tunes in it are not as interesting as in their regular Lesson books.
sdm -- 06/08/2005, 13:17:04 -- #14763
Hmm. Interesting stuff if mostly a "religious war" with no real resolution. However, I would point out to you, pringe, that your logic about learning from earlier music would have to expand to include a lot of African music (that I'd bet most of us don't know much about) that combined with western music to birth this wonderful new form. This "missing piece" doesn't seem to have hurt many players. That said, I would love to do more classical and hopefully will have time enough. Right now, I want to play jazz.
7 -- 06/08/2005, 15:34:16 -- #14767
"Let's Play Jazz" series http://www.santorellapublication.com/piano.pdf Samples from the series http://www.letsplaymusic.com/Instrumental%20Music/Keyboard/LPJBook1samples/LPJBook1Samples.htm More info http://www.schmittmusicandbooks.com/shop/product_view.asp?storeID=HSCQWB5F1XQ29P4D6XP87AUC50490B66&id=7395&special=true&privateproduct=1 * * * * * * * Jazz+, You have mentioned the Faber&Faber series on many occasions, perhaps you would be kind enough to provide us with some info how to order it. I would like to see a copy. Is it possible to get through LJP? Thanks * * * * * * * sdm, Having spent a total of about half a year in Africa, I tried to absorb as much of the music as possible without actually doing any formal study. It is interesting to note that Sudanese folk music is almost entirely based on the minor pentatonic scale. Cool stuff!
Dr. Whack -- 06/08/2005, 16:01:38 -- #14769
Cool - The Faber and Faber series are called "Piano Adventures" FJH Music Company Most music stores heave nowadays. It really is a good series. I've switched all my early students over to it
Dr. Whack -- 06/08/2005, 16:02:15 -- #14770
* by Nancy and Randall Faber
Jazz+ -- 06/08/2005, 21:29:41 -- #14786
Thanks 7, I looked at their Primer "Lets Play Jazz" and wasn't impressed. It's about the same approach as all other Primers I have seen and they were not labeled "jazz". I suspect they call it "Let's Play Jazz" mostly for marketing label. I played all the examples from "Lets Play Jazz" Book 1 and I don't see anything really jazzy about them. The examples are not as interesting or melodic as the Faber books I use for teaching. The Faber books really did a good job of selecting and arranging interesting melodies. Some of the Faber songs are actually jazzier than the examples from "Lets Play Jazz". Faber also has pretty good teacher accompiniments. Because I use the Faber books a couple of hours every day for teaching beginners, I have made my own accompiniments for a lot of the songs in them and I never get tired of hearing them played well. I HATED using the Alfred and Bastion books. I'm always looking for good method books and I have not found anything that trumps the Faber method books.
pringe -- 06/09/2005, 03:03:28 -- #14792
sdm - yeah I totally agree, in fact I have just been reading up on the history of jazz right from the very start with African influences etc. on a sidenote - anyone have the branford marsalis album "heard it twice the first time"? a blues album, with one track in particular that has a worksong similar to one which wouold have ben sung by the black slaves working the railway / fields etc. amazing stuff.
CynBad -- 06/09/2005, 11:09:16 -- #14800
Jazz+, I'm not familiar with Piano Adventures, but now I'm going to take a look at it. Have you ever used Music Tree? I used to use it with my beginners. Do you know how it compares to Piano Adventures?
Jazz+ -- 06/09/2005, 13:47:59 -- #14810
CynBad
Jazz+ -- 06/09/2005, 13:52:34 -- #14811
CynBad, No, I am not familiar with Music Tree. be usre to look at the LESSON BOOK: "FOR THE OLDER BEGINNER" "ACCELERATED PIANO Adventures" by Faber and Faber. It's for age 11 and up, it is fresh and appealing with nice graphics. It is very different than the Alfred method.
Dr. Whack -- 06/09/2005, 15:49:32 -- #14816
I had problems with all levels of the Alfred's series. There were gaps in the logical progession of difficulty and explanation of concepts. At first glance I thought the Faber and Faber series was too simple, but as I got new students who had been already using it, I was enlightend. I now start all my beginners with it. Some of the problems I had with Alfred have dissapeared (ties, dotted rhythms, note reading). If I'm not carefull, occasionally, a student can get pretty far into the series without really learning note names (this always happened with Alfred), but the beginning books do a good job of suggesting different fingerings for tunes where other books would have recommend using the same 5-finger hand positions. If I make sure the students use the F&F recommened fingerings, the students are forced to think about the note names and usually end up actually learning them without the assistance of note spellers and such. There are also supplemntary books for all levels (pop, performance, Christmas, hymns, etc) and the arrangements are very nice
shrock -- 06/09/2005, 18:53:09 -- #14824
Are you talking about the adult or children alfred series.
Jazz+ -- 06/09/2005, 20:02:32 -- #14828
I agree with Dr. Whack and he explained Faber & Faber's method well.
Dr. Whack -- 06/09/2005, 20:15:44 -- #14829
It's been my experience that F&F is better than both Alfred Series. Although F&F is labeled "Older Beginner", and not really labeled "Adult", it has worked better for adults than Alfred's in my opinion. I recently had an adult beginner who had already purchased the Alfred's Adult course, so we decided to use it. After several months she became bored and frustrated. We switched to the F&F Older Beginner, and she instantly felt more comfortable. Thanks for the kind words Jazz+:)
Classical_Count -- 06/09/2005, 22:59:26 -- #14832
I supposed I will be partially biased in my opinion. I myself have trained in classical piano since the age of four. I began jazz in the 7th grade, playing in the school jazz band. I would say that one does not have to have "classical training" but it would be in the pianist's best interest. Learning this "classical" material not only teaches advanced techniques and quick dexterity. It is the foundation for the appreciation of quality music and dedication. The required theory/harmony courses eventually teach the pianist the skills of reading all those 7th chords and V9ths 13ths etc. Most highschools require the pianist auditioning for the jazz band to have a minimum of grade 6 or 7 in "classical" training with a teacher. By the time I myself reached highschool, I was a grade 10 lvl pianist which made learning the material extremely fast. Not only that, but with all the music education (yes theory too) I had an amazing appreciation for all different sorts of genres: Classical, contemporary, 20th century, opera, and ofcourse jazz. Thus, although not absolutely required, it would definately be a good idea to have some sort of training in the area. Ofcourse, if you really love jazz, hey, give it a try.
XtoTheZ -- 06/10/2005, 14:39:01 -- #14867
Do you need to have a teaching certificate to teach students?
Styles -- 06/10/2005, 14:53:23 -- #14868
7, I wasn't directly disagreeing with you, and if the guy wants to play jazz ONLY, then by all means he should do exactly what you suggested. And if he wants to get the benefits that classical music brings, then so be it. Whatever. I never said you were wrong. I completely respect that you've been to Africa, Europe, and are most likely a better pianist. But your opinion of my opinion means little to me. You are pretty funny though pz
CynBad -- 06/10/2005, 15:53:46 -- #14873
XtotheZ, anyone can teach private lessons. You don't need any credentials. But your students might want to know what your credentials are, like if you have a degree. And, there's all this talk about "grade levels" in classical piano. Maybe these are coming from a country other than the U.S. I have no idea what these grade levels are, and I have a Bachelor's degree in Piano.
ziggysane -- 06/10/2005, 17:04:11 -- #14880
Grade levels used by the Royal Academy of music and such. I don't know if they're used elsewhere.
jazzvirtuoso -- 06/10/2005, 19:07:44 -- #14885
"You don't need any credentials. But your students might want to know what your credentials are, like if you have a degree." Believe me they soon forget about credentials when they hear you playing your ass off, i normally got students just by going to Guitar center or brook Mays and playing on their keyboards and pianos. Then I notice people listening and after that someone walks right up and normally ask's for lessons, almost never fails. Oh btw did I mention how good it is for your ego? :) JV'
JayBrooks -- 06/10/2005, 19:41:26 -- #14888
JV - Sounds to me like your ego is quite healthy already...
CynBad -- 06/10/2005, 19:44:04 -- #14890
Hearing you play is definitely a "credential". But let me tell you, PARENTS of students often care about credentials. The fact remains, you don't need any certificate or degree to teach piano lessons. But if you're teaching a serious classical student, for example, you'd best have some credentials. Your student can't even enter important competitions unless you belong to a certain music teacher's association.
XtoTheZ -- 06/10/2005, 20:45:10 -- #14894
Its how you teach not how you play, for parents.
XtoTheZ -- 06/10/2005, 20:48:04 -- #14895
Everyone in my opinion should learn classical, basics of the piano and theory before they learn any other styles. 7 is an exception.
jazzvirtuoso -- 06/10/2005, 22:36:28 -- #14901
JV - Sounds to me like your ego is quite healthy already... Fuck you asshole! JV'
Styles -- 06/10/2005, 23:22:21 -- #14902
Now it's okay if your directing your insults toward an internet entity, but personal attacks and wild uses of vulgarity aren't encouraged nor allowed in this forum. jus kiddin
Mike -- 06/10/2005, 23:40:58 -- #14905
Its ok to use vulgarities and personal attacke if you are talking to a classical player of course.
Barry -- 06/11/2005, 08:39:42 -- #14918
Yes, but only if you belong to the correct association. ;-)
7 -- 06/11/2005, 12:01:01 -- #14928
jazzvirtuoso, I strongly urge you to reconsider following through with your proposed action as posited in your post #14901 in this thread. Scientific studies have conclusively proven that engaging in activities of that nature almost invariably results in getting poopoo on your peepee.
7 -- 06/12/2005, 20:45:43 -- #15020
Jazz+ & Dr Whack, On your recommendations, I just purchased the Kid's primer & Level 1 of the Faber&Faber books as well as Accelerated Book 1 for the Older Beginner. I appreciate both of your input. Scot, It turned out to be both possible and extremely easy to order these books through this site. I would encourage anyone who wants to buy books, CDs, etc. to try to do it from here to help supoort this site. Just go to the search box in the upper left hand corner of any screen labeled: "Search for books, cds, music:" and type into the field next to it the article you're looking for. I bet you'll find it!
Dr. Whack -- 06/12/2005, 23:41:51 -- #15026
Cool! I hope you have as much luck with it as I have.
SolArt -- 06/16/2005, 15:42:10 -- #15196
What I like about classical music is that it can bring one to tears pretty easily. I've noticed that when people hear me playing classical I often see watery eyes. My favorite classical composer is Chopin. I'd like to recommend a very good book about him. It's Chopin: pianist and teacher as seen by his pupils. The author is Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger. It's super because his students of course knew him & his playing better than anyone else. It gives people's comments, etc. I'll give some quotes out of the book later.
jazzvirtuoso -- 06/16/2005, 17:09:37 -- #15204
I don't know why but my jazz playing always sounds better after I've practiced classical pieces esp bach, chopin etc. Jv'
CynBad -- 06/16/2005, 18:44:25 -- #15210
SolArt, and I thought I was the only one who cried at the symphony.
Dr. Whack -- 06/16/2005, 20:26:47 -- #15212
I even cry when a comedian is great - I'm always moved by greatness...
Mike -- 06/16/2005, 23:33:17 -- #15216
yeh, Chris Rock said the other day... Why do all you white guys take anti-depressants... You're white!!! What the fuck are you depressed about. I cried.
Mike -- 06/16/2005, 23:33:58 -- #15217
partially because I realized he has a thing for frogs too
leeman -- 08/05/2005, 10:57:31 -- #17318
Hi, Leeman here. I have just started a jazz piano course with the ABRSM in the UK and this provides scales, arpeggios, chords and integrates blues, standards and contemporary pieces. I initially trained as a classical guitarist and completed all my grades so I had developed a good understanding of theory and practice. Formal courses of study, such as the ABRSM, recognise Jazz as a contemporary style and an equal to classical piano. The basic schooling in scales and arpeggios, etc. is the same for both, but the Jazz syllabus allows for a freer approch to music. Having completed a full syllabus in classical music I feel following a Jazz syllabus as equal to a classical syllabus. Jazz is a unique approach and while a classical technique is beneficial early on ot can become a hindrance with time as it can prevent freedom and individuality, cornerstones of improvisation. Check out the ABRSM syllabus. I think it is great for kids and I think it may be available to study in America. Great site
Jazz+ -- 08/05/2005, 12:56:46 -- #17326
Hey 7 I think their Accelerated Book 1 for the Older Beginner is more successful than their Kids Primer
7 -- 08/05/2005, 13:10:02 -- #17328
Jazz+, I'm not sure if you mean that the Older Beginner would be better for kids than the Primer .. ? I managed to get the store that I work out of to begin carrying the F&F line. Their rep says that it's currently the best-selling piano series on the market. I just started an adult student in the Older Beginner series. I hope he sticks around long enough for me to at least finish the first book with him. It's challenging to teach this student for two reasons: He's far from being a whiz, and he doesn't speak any English - so I have to translate everything in the book into Spanish. I've taught many many students in Spanish so that's not the challenge. It's just usually I'm pretty familiar with the materials first. It will be interesting to see how well the F&F materials hold up to working with a student with a level of natural aptitude as low as his.
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