LearnJazzPiano.com archives: SCOT
TommyB -- 07/03/2005, 18:51:35 -- #16100
Scot,

You said that you first learned jazz at age 20.  How long did it take you to completely learn jazz and to make that jazz sound?  Is jazz really hard to learn?  Is it harder to learn jazz than classical?

Scot -- 07/04/2005, 09:59:16 -- #16123
I'm still learning how to play jazz :)

The "jazz sound" is purely mathematics and science.  You get a book like Mark Levine's Jazz Piano book and study it.  There are patterns and set ways to do things that sound jazzy, so you study and practice those things until you've got it. Anyone can get those things.

The hardest part is when it comes to improvising and trying to play stuff that means something instead of just a bunch of notes.

Classical is easier because all the notes are written out for you.  You never have a question about what note to play, just how to play it.  It's easier and for me, not as rewarding because I'm a composer at heart and I enjoy not only writing my own tunes but the improv aspect of jazz where I can almost write a tune while I'm on stage.

Jazz is all about composition, so if you want to be great, you should not only learn the science behind jazz (the chords, scales, relationships between them, etc) but you should study composition as well.  Learn what makes a good composition and then use those rules and knowlegde when you are soloing.

The greatest jazz improvisers made solos that were so compositionally sound that they sometimes sounded like tunes, yet they were pure improv.

Anyway, I started out with Mehegan's book and started making a "jazz sound" as soon as I learned how to play 2-5-1 chords.  You can make a jazz sound by looking at the files and lessons on this site within a few minutes if you already know something about the piano.

TommyB -- 07/04/2005, 13:08:26 -- #16128
mark levine's shows you how to play 2-5-1 too?

TommyB -- 07/04/2005, 14:19:55 -- #16130
Is it really important to finish the method books before moving on to playing classical pieces?  Alfreds has 3 levels and im not even half way through level 2.  I've been working with the alfred book for almost a year now with teacher and im just getting impatient and tired of playing through that book.  Do i just have to be really patient to be able to play classical pieces like fur elise, etc.

jazz jasper -- 07/04/2005, 15:19:58 -- #16132
the best advice you can ever hear is play it slowly, rachmaninov never EVER played anything fast, until he performed it, (unless he was with an orchestra)  just pracice it slowly, im not a great fan of working through classical books, you can play anything you want if you play it slowly first.  (you have to play slowly for ages though its not an over night thing!!)

Jazz Jasper (or even 'classical jazper')

TommyB -- 07/10/2005, 15:59:12 -- #16359
Scot,

are there any good jazz sheet music with nice arrangments?

Scot -- 07/10/2005, 22:36:25 -- #16368
Lots!  One of the best is here:

http://pianotoday.com/Steinway.html

Get book 1, you won't be sorry. It's the best of Piano Today's solo jazz piano arrangements by guys like Levine, Broadbent, Ramsey Lewis, and many others.

TommyB -- 07/11/2005, 11:08:12 -- #16389
the book is arranged for advanced players right?  My reading level is still begginer, but i guess ill try and memorize it.

TommyB -- 07/11/2005, 13:15:58 -- #16392
Is the christams book nicely arranged too?

TommyB -- 07/11/2005, 17:00:21 -- #16400
Scot

Do music stores carry those books?

Scot -- 07/11/2005, 20:01:17 -- #16404
The arrangements come from Piano Today, a very good magazine for all pianists, jazz and classical.  They are all good arrangements. I don't know if the books are in stores.

TommyB -- 07/13/2005, 18:59:02 -- #16503
Scot,

Is it true, if you can play classical piano, you can play everything? Meaning, if i play and read classical music, will i be able to pick a piano book off the shelf like the steinway & sons book and just sight read it? Or should i just tell my teacher to teach me from jazz sheet music so that i can get the rythem and feel for jazz music.

LoFi -- 07/14/2005, 03:30:01 -- #16514
I'm *pretty* sure I've seen the one of the Steinway books in a shop in here in the UK.

TommyB - A skilled classical pianist will be able to read and play the music in that Steinway book (quite how well they'll be able to sightread it depends on a) how good they are and b) how difficult the music is), but that's not really the same thing as "playing jazz".

<Lights blue touch paper and stands back...>

(I'm currently starting on this learning curve - I'm a fairly accomplished classical pianist, so I can play transcriptions of jazz performances fairly well, but when asked to improvise, or comp, I'm right back down to blues scale over closed voices :).

Scot -- 07/14/2005, 09:08:45 -- #16522
It helps if you read down some great arrangements when you are a classical player, those Steinway books would probably be a very good way to get more of the jazzy sound/feel into your playing, LoFi.

Remember- half of jazz is pure science. Scales, technique, chords, relationships. THe other half is incorporating it into your music.

TommyB -- 07/14/2005, 14:44:15 -- #16537
Scot,

do you think learning from alfreds series is a good method?  Should i also get a supplement book or excersise book?  is hanon a finger excersise book?  is good for begginers?

antiJV -- 07/14/2005, 16:05:52 -- #16538
TommyB,

Why do you only seem to listen to scot and no one else, obviously i dont mean to offend scot because, lets be honest he knows a hell of a lot more than most of us!!  But other people have made contributions aswell!

TommyB -- 07/14/2005, 16:30:14 -- #16539
Thats the reason! He knows more than you do!

jazz jasper -- 07/14/2005, 16:32:12 -- #16540
Thats a bit harsh dont you think?!

Scot -- 07/14/2005, 18:19:40 -- #16543
I do not, actually, know much more than anyone else, and in life it's important to garner all opinions in your decision making process because it's very important if you want to come to a decision that will be beneficial to you.  One person, such as myself, can only give you opinions that have worked for one person- myself.  While listening to all opinions on a subject will give you a better chance of finding out exactly where you stand on something.

TommyB -- 07/14/2005, 18:29:51 -- #16544
Ok Can anyone recommend me some excersie books that compliments with the alfreds method.

CynBad -- 07/14/2005, 19:48:14 -- #16547
Start with Hanon.  In all 12 keys.

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/14/2005, 20:44:42 -- #16552
"Start with Hanon.  In all 12 keys"

Hannon is non-musical and advocates potentially harmful practices like lifting the fingers high and other such nonsense!!!! Bach is the way to go.

JV'

Dr. Whack -- 07/14/2005, 20:59:01 -- #16554
The first couple of exercises in "The Little Pischna" are pretty cool (there are lots of others too, but the first couple are a nice intro to some independence)

You can get a lot of benefit from the Hanon without lifting your fingers. (there have been lots of arguments about techinque here:) The point of those exercises is to develop the ability to play  notes of even volume (weight) and duration, as well as getting you aquainted with all 12 keys both physically and mentally. 5-10 minutes a day of that won't hurt anybody - kinda like doing your daily push-ups:)

Of course scales and arpeggios are pretty good for ya too.

Bach is great, but kinda hard to learn if you're a beginner...ya might try "First Lessons In Bach" if you're into that sorta thing:)

TommyB -- 07/15/2005, 09:20:33 -- #16568
You mean classical? Im sort of into classical music. Bach or Hanon, who's advice should i take!

Dr. Whack -- 07/15/2005, 13:13:56 -- #16569
Any or all of it will help your playing.  The idea is to get familiar with the instrument, the language, and develop the  physical ability to play.  The more you play/practice, the better you get.  The more types of music you  play and practice  the more well-rounded musician you become.

Bottom line, learning to play music is a life long journey.  There are very few, if any, shorcuts.  The point is to enjoy the ride.

If you haven't sone so already, get an experienced teacher.  Study with that person for a while, then get another, etc..listen a lot, practice a lot:)

CynBad -- 07/15/2005, 13:36:49 -- #16571
He was asking for an exercise book.  Bach is not an exercise book.
Hanon is great as a purely EXERCISE book.
You can make it as musical as you want.  You do not have to lift your fingers high -- articulation is what matters.  And you can change that, too.
After 30 years of playing and a degree in piano performance, I can tell you that Hanon has never harmed me and has only helped build the small muscles in the hand and greatly increased fluency, speed and clarity.  I used to play them to get my "chops" back together, and also for warm-up.  Performing classical music is so technically demanding that you will often see pianists soaking their hands in warm water right before a performance.  Any slight bit of stiffness will kill you.

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/15/2005, 16:26:48 -- #16575
In defense of Hanon one could say the following:

“Hanon was a superb teacher. His book is simply a guideline of his teaching he used with his pupils. During the lessons, he would modify the exercises and assign them in accordance with the student’s abilities and technical inadequacies.”

This may well be the case, and I have no qualms with that, perhaps Hanon wrote one way but actually directed his students to do otherwise.

However, even if this was the case, the current reality is that we have no idea how Hanon actually used the book (and judging by the instruction he left us, the scenario above is highly unlikely). The way the book is used nowadays (when it is used) is simply to learn all  the exercises following the instruction in the preface. Lazy teachers love it.

Having said that, let us see the shortcomings.

The main problem with Hanon is the hidden assumption that one should learn technique on its own.

Then, as a corollary, we have the second hidden assumption that the technique in Hanon covers all bases.

Both of these hidden assumptions are completely false. Hence Hanon’s uselessness.

JV'

Dr. Whack -- 07/15/2005, 18:17:55 -- #16576
"The main problem with Hanon is the hidden assumption that one should learn technique on its own.

Then, as a corollary, we have the second hidden assumption that the technique in Hanon covers all bases.

Both of these hidden assumptions are completely false. Hence Hanon’s uselessness."


I don't think anyone really makes those assumtions, and it surely doesn't render hanon useless.

"The way the book is used nowadays (when it is used) is simply to learn all  the exercises following the instruction in the preface. Lazy teachers love it."

I've never used it that way as a teacher or a student, just as I wouldn't work on only Chopin or only Bach or only Coltrane.  No one thing is going to make anyone great; there are really no shortcuts

TommyB -- 07/15/2005, 18:26:20 -- #16577
Why do lazy teachers love hanon?

jazz jasper -- 07/15/2005, 18:44:53 -- #16578
what do you mean?

CynBad -- 07/15/2005, 18:46:34 -- #16579
JV - maybe you should take up Zen meditation or something.
So much vitriol over an exercise book!  ROFL

CynBad -- 07/15/2005, 18:47:38 -- #16580
4 out of 5 lazy teachers surveyed prefer Hanon!  ROFLMAO

TommyB -- 07/15/2005, 19:29:14 -- #16581
What does ROFLMAO Mean?

CynBad -- 07/15/2005, 19:34:57 -- #16582
Tommy, you're SO full of questions.
It means "rolling on the floor laughing my derrier off."

Scot -- 07/15/2005, 19:47:47 -- #16583
Hence Hanon’s uselessness.

Interesting opinion in that when used properly the Hanon exercises increase technique and knowledge of the keyboard.  When students go through the exercises in 12 keys slowly and methodically, they will have better chops.

To say that the Hanon exercises are useless seems like a statement made in ignorance or stubbornness to me.

mynameis -- 07/15/2005, 20:40:49 -- #16584
CynBad,

Arent you a little too old to be rolling on the floor laughing your ass off?  Don't break a hip

mynameis -- 07/15/2005, 20:52:51 -- #16585
Cuz this is what happens when Bad Meets Evil,
We hit the trees till we look like Vietnamese people
He's Evil, and I'm Bad like Steve Segil
Above the Law cuz I don't agree wit police either
We ain't eager to be legal
So please leave me wit the keys to your Jeep Eagle
I breathe ether in three lethal amounts
While I stab myself in the knee with a diseased needle
Releasin rage on anybody in squeezing range
Cold enough to make the seasons change into freezing rain
(He's insane) No I'm not, I just want to shoot up and I'm pissed off
Cuz I can't find a decent vain

TommyB -- 07/15/2005, 20:54:52 -- #16586
Im just trying to find the right method.

TommyB -- 07/15/2005, 20:59:16 -- #16587
antiJV,

Why are you Anti jazz virtuoso

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/16/2005, 00:31:36 -- #16592
To say that the Hanon exercises are useless seems like a statement made in ignorance or stubbornness to me."

Say what you want to old great Grand Master Scot, but i'm trying to prevent someone with no experince from potentially doing themselves great harm. The point I was making is that Tommy could be spending his time on making real music instead of things that arent. Why force something as non-muscial as hannon when he could be spending time learning stuff like bach and  making real music.

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/16/2005, 00:35:08 -- #16593
What is hannon???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

It is five finger patterns repeated with a (misguided) view to strengthen fingers. It has no context, it demands no intelligence or investigative curiosity. It asks for no aural representation of the sound one is trying to produce. Just lift the finger high and keep everything else motionless. Not only it demands no awareness of the physical sensations of playing, as it positively encourages users to block out such sensations, since they are often of intense fatigue, soreness, pain and discomfort. Hanon trains the player to numb
himself to the physicality of piano playing (hence the injuries). It desensitises musical sensibility and dulls intelligent discrimination. Hanon is the antithesis of extracting a small section from a piece.

JV'

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/16/2005, 00:35:31 -- #16594
There is nothing wrong with it (besides it being incredibly boring), as long as it is done correctly. This means one must not follow the instructions that Hanon himself gives! Particularly, the "lift the fingers as high as possible", especially while other fingers are still pressing down on keys, is very dangerous. Also, most people expect to gain complete independence of all fingers. This is anatomically impossible, but not everybody is aware of that. If you adamantly keep trying to attain indepence for fingers 3-5, you will not only fail, but probably also damage something.

So, if you have a knowledgeable teacher who can teach you the correct motions, and perhaps even more importantly, point out incorrect motions, go ahead. If you don't have such a teacher, by all means, stay away from it.


Back to your graves, Hanon zombies!!!

Scot -- 07/16/2005, 13:39:02 -- #16603
Though everyone is entitled to their opinions, I believe your opinion could steer players in the wrong direction so I'm going to explain my side a little better.

If one suffers pain and discomfort when playing Hanon, then one is doing something wrong and potentially injurous to themselves.

Hanon can be just as musical as practicing scales.  Here's a quote that may interest some people:

"I believe this matter of insisting upon a thorough technical knowledge, particularly scale playing, is a very vital one.  The mere ability to play a few pieces does not constitute musical proficiency."

Oh yeah, it's by some guy name Rachmaninoff.

Scales and exercises, be they Hanon or otherwise, do more than make your  fingers go up and down.  They train your hands to know the feel of intervals on the piano.  Same with arpeggios.  

Without systematically approaching each and every interval on the piano, in each and every key, a pianist, especially a  jazzer, needs that stuff wired into into their brains and muscles so that when it comes time to jam, nothing is holding them back, especially not a lack of knowledge about the intervals they want to play when improvising.

To anyone thinkng about practicing Hanon, go slowly and do each exercise in 12 keys.

Scot -- 07/16/2005, 13:40:42 -- #16604
TommyB- please don't log in with more than one account. You may feel as though you are anonymous, but each message is saved with the IP address.  Plus, your abrasive style is impossible to disguise and we've had enough of MyNameIs, ok?

antiJV -- 07/17/2005, 10:06:29 -- #16621
HAHA!  I thought i recognised his style, the funny thing is, is if you look at the conversation between mynameis and tommyb theres 4 messages between them all in the space of 19 minutes!!!  well done scot!!  By the way im not anti jazzvirtuoso im anti jazz violin due to a bad experience with a violinist trying to play jazz violin in my class at college.  Anyway TommyB/mynameis, hopefully we have anwsred all of your questions so now you can fu..... go away!!

jmderay -- 07/17/2005, 12:39:17 -- #16624
So much violence around there !!!

Speaking about Hanon, I remember when I (re)started piano some years ago, I was told to practice with Hanon, what I did.

And then, at the same time, some weeks later, I heard a Jazz standard played by french pianist Martial SOLAL in which he added a solo with Hanon exercises inside, it was funny and great !! (A way to tell that Hanon is not useless ;-))

Did anyone already heard that ?? and if so, please to me the name of the album, I would be glad to hear that solo again !!

mynameis -- 07/17/2005, 14:26:02 -- #16628
I apologize for that inapropriate lyrical content.

Barry -- 07/17/2005, 19:14:09 -- #16637
Shostakovich wrote his second piano concerto as a present for his son.  The third movement is full of Hanon passages as he claimed it was the only way he could get his son to practice them!

Scot -- 07/17/2005, 20:22:45 -- #16638
Heh, I'll have to check that out!

TommyB -- 07/18/2005, 13:25:16 -- #16663
What is the name of the hanon exercise?  Is it called "Virtuoso Pianists"

JB -- 07/18/2005, 14:36:08 -- #16664
I may have mentioned this before but there is a far better exercise book than hanon by "Oscar Beringer", which is far more appropriate for jazz pianists (even though it's 100years old). I think these kinds of exercises are only unmusical if you play them unmusically. Take the same care and attention to detail that you would for any other classical piece and you'll get a lot out of it. If you aim for speed over accuracy then you're wasting your time.
Also it's even better to create your own hanon-like exercises out of particular diffucult passage in a piece or out of a lick that you can't play quite right. Take the same pattern of notes and work it through all the keys up and down the length of the keyboard. It won't trouble you again.
If you use hanon, czerny, Beringer...etc then do so selectively and with intelligence.  
Bach is good too, especially very slowly and precisely

Scot -- 07/18/2005, 14:56:25 -- #16670
Very good points!

SolArt -- 07/18/2005, 15:07:06 -- #16673
Lee Evans has a series called

SolArt -- 07/18/2005, 15:07:53 -- #16674
LEE EVANS KEYBOARD TECHNIQUES IN JAZZ

SolArt -- 07/18/2005, 15:13:03 -- #16675
that's pretty neato. It was published by Edward B. Marks Music Corporation around 1980.

(Excuse the breaks, something glitched)

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/18/2005, 15:25:48 -- #16677
"Very good points!"

Exactly esp. since he said essentially the same thing that I was saying.

So...
When one faces a difficult spot in a piece, such as a trill, and then creates an exercise for that (as suggested as a better alternative for Hanon), one ends up having a Hanon-like exercise. There is no difference.

"Doing Hanon" means something else. It's a synonym for doing technical exercises out of the context of pieces, in a more or less systematic way, with the goal of accumulating technical skills, whether one needs them at the given moment or not. So, occasionally picking a Hanon exercise, or a Czerny, or any other for that matter to solve a particular problem is really not the issue here. In addition, there is nothing special or magical about Hanon exercises. Many other people have compiled similar or even identical ones. If I choose to practice a scale or a trill and use the Hanon book to see how it's done, I am not "doing Hanon" (a scale is a scale is a scale).

It's the underlying idea of the often mindless, repetitive and potentially harmful aspects of doing things in isolation that is the issue. Yes, using Hanon to practice that trill in  La Campanella will help me quickly solve that problem, and so does playing through that section over and over again. The difference is that working out the problems in the context of a piece will allow me to play that particular piece, while doing Hanon provides me with a mass of techniques that may or may not come in handy at some point. When those techniques are needed, the likelihood that they have been forgotten by then is high, unless one does Hanon religiously every day.

In the end, I believe, it all evens out. Both approaches will give similar results in the long run. The advantages and disadvantages have been discussed many times, so I won't repeat them. The only thing I am going to say is that the aspect that really convinces me that unsupervised isolated exercises from a beginners standpoint are "bad" is that they can easily lead to injuries, particularly when done without proper supervision. But then, it's a personal choice.

Good post huh Scott.....:) nevermind know that you will have sometihng critical to say about anything that I post, even if you know it to be true.

JV'

Dr. Whack -- 07/18/2005, 16:57:58 -- #16687
"The difference is that working out the problems in the context of a piece will allow me to play that particular piece, while doing Hanon provides me with a mass of techniques that may or may not come in handy at some point. When those techniques are needed, the likelihood that they have been forgotten by then is high, unless one does Hanon religiously every day.

I disagree.  I think  the benefit of exercises are much broader than their immediate targets.  They can be a  sort of  general conditioning and transfer to all aspects of your musicianship.  Of course exercises are not the beginning and the end of your musicianship either, but they certainly shouldn't be discouraged and/or singled out as "harmful"

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/18/2005, 17:03:03 -- #16688
oh, yea whacky I forgot about you I knew that you would disagree too.

Whacky can you read?

Go back and read the post again. I repeat the jest of my post is this:

Excercises repeated over and over can be harmful to a beginner if you disagree with this you are a whackier than I thougt! :)

JV'

CynBad -- 07/18/2005, 17:35:33 -- #16691
Checked your blood pressure lately?

;)

jazzvirtuoso -- 07/18/2005, 17:54:24 -- #16694
ya know cynbad the more you speak the more I fall head over heals for you. :0

JV'

Scot -- 07/18/2005, 20:03:24 -- #16701
JV, I won't criticize a post unless I think it's completely off base or misleading to less experienced players who need to hear both sides of the story.  In that case, in person or on a BBS, I'm more than likely to speak up regardless of popular opinion.

After reading your previous post (the large one) I realize that we are talking about different things. I'm talking about jazz pianists, and you're talking about classical pianists.

For classical music, unless you want to  be a great sight reader, why not just work out the technique as it comes along in repertoire?  Use Hanon and other exercises to warm up and such.  It's great advice for classical music.

But for jazz?  A jazz musician is an improviser, there is no set technical challenge, no set lick, no set group of notes that you're going to play on a regular basis.  

What does that mean?  

Well, like back country skiing, mountain biking, debating, playing basketball, and yes, like playing jazz, it means that you are to expect one thing only: the unexpected.

If your fingers can't do everything you want them to do becauase you have not practiced and perfected all of your technical skills, then what's going to happen when you try to grab some cool sound you're hearing?  

It's going to suck is what is going to happen.

As a basketball player, what if you are wide open and need to take that long shot, but you never practiced long shots?  What if your'e in the back country skiing and you come up to a band of cliffs but you've never jumped off a cliff before?  What if the most beautiful woman in the world comes up to you and says, "I want to dance." but you don't know how to dance?

Being prepared  to play anything at any time means that you have to prepare yourself for the unexpected and when the unexpected happens, I for one am not going to be held back because my technique is sub-par to the ideas I hear in my head.

This is why Hanon  and other exercises (I really enjoy Czerny, "The Art of Finger Dexterity" a well as a wonderfully fun, both melodically and harmonically, book of 60 preludes by Cramer-Bulow) are great for the jazzer.  They fully explore the kinds of things you may want to do on the piano, and if you take the time to "jazz them up", then you will be even more prepared to play whatever your mind comes up with.

antiJV -- 07/18/2005, 20:35:58 -- #16706
I dont mean to be rude, but sometimes, you really do come across as an arrogant old fart JV!!!:)  Are you obsessed with technique and being techincally perfect??!!

JB -- 07/18/2005, 20:59:46 -- #16708
Also forgot to mention the importance of listening to yourself carefully as you play, even during these 'exercises'.
Piano players very often don't (they don't have to check they're in tune because there's nothing they can do about it anyway)
Try to listen to yourself in the same way a singer or a trumpet player does. If they don't 'hear' the note they want before they play/sing it, it simply won't come out.

jmderay -- 07/19/2005, 10:49:36 -- #16725
... always about the HANON thing, I was writing some posts ago about a song played by french jazzman Martial SOLAL in which he added a solo with some HANON stuffs inside.

I found the name of the album, for those interested, it's called "en solo" and has been recorded in Concert at the "Theatre de l'Ouest Parisien", in Paris on 1971.11.20 (not yesterday, but keep in mind SOLAL was born in 1927 !!) ---> available at amazon.com

The song is the first  one, and is called "Ha non !!" which could be traducted by : "no way !!"  (he plays withs words)

in an interview (there at http://www.citizenjazz.com/article456732.html ) (sorry it's in french) he explained : (I used the google's traduction) :

Journalist : Is humour an essential element of the Solalien universe?  I think of "Ah non" ??

M.S. :  It is not only musical, I do not conceive the life without derision, without humour.  The things which have humour appear as significant to me as the very serious things.  That also holds when I play:  the quotation has an obviously humorous side.  At a certain time I even misused it.  Maintaining that interests me less than front, but I do not refuse an idea when it arrives;  I play of them three notes and I deviate as quickly as possible so that that remains field of the wink.  One cannot be really caught with the serious one, but one can very take obviously his work with serious, because when one works, one forgets all the contingencies of the life, one forgets the time who passes, tiredness...  One should not be afraid to criticize oneself, to turn itself in derision to manage to have a sight  righter of reality, but when one works, when one is in concert, one does not think of all things.

... My post might be boring for some of you, but for the others, who where wondering about the Hanon thing, it might be a way to (re)discover those exercices !!

Copyright 2005 by Scot Ranney. All rights reserved.
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