| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Question for experts in wind instruments | |
| albetan -- 07/05/2005, 10:31:26 -- #16157 | |
| Hi wind players: I never have understood why some wind instruments are tuned out of concert pitch, like Bb Trumpet, Bb Clarinet, A Clarinet, Eb Clarinet, Eb Alto sax, Bb tenor sax, Bb Soprano sax, Eb Baritone sax... Is here in LJP any expert in those instruments that may explain it to me? I have written lots of arrangements for those instruments, but i never understood that mystery of strange keys for them. Once i saw a C trumpet and a C tenor sax, but as a very rare thing. | |
| CynBad -- 07/05/2005, 14:25:12 -- #16166 | |
| I'm certainly not an expert in wind instruments, but I used to play one. This has always driven me crazy as well. I believe that if it sounds like a C, it should be called a C! I believe the convention of having wind instruments in different "keys" was simply so that the range of that instrument would fit more neatly within either the G staff or the F staff. The purpose was to avoid excessive leger lines. For string instruments, the problem was addressed simply by using the various C clefs and simply moving the C clef up or down the staff to indicate the location of C for the various instruments (violin, viola, cello, bass). This is one of those things I learned in music school. I think the whole idea of Eb or Bb instruments is ridiculous and horribly confusing. It adds yet another layer of transposition to everything you do. | |
| albetan -- 07/05/2005, 14:54:28 -- #16167 | |
| Hi CynBad: It's obvious that you use G cleff or F cleff according to the range of each instrument. In Strings, Viola works with C cleff because its center of range is middle C. My question is not about cleffs but about keys. Why those instruments are tuned out of concert pitch? | |
| CynBad -- 07/05/2005, 15:16:01 -- #16168 | |
| That's why. They are tuned out of concert pitch so that their range will fit into the G staff without excessive leger lines. So I've been told. I have never heard any other explanation, and I don't even think this is a very good one. I do find it curious and annoying myself. | |
| CynBad -- 07/05/2005, 15:26:40 -- #16171 | |
| Here's another idea: Maybe the originals of these instruments were the C instruments, and they did not want to change the pitch names associated with the various fingerings on these instruments -- so that the fingering for a "C" on a soprano sax would be the same as on an alto sax or a tenor sax or a baritone sax. Just an idea. We still need a real wind expert to enlighten us. | |
| Uncle -- 07/05/2005, 15:27:48 -- #16172 | |
| I've heard that the reason they are transposed that way is to make it easier to switch between instruments. An example: Because tenor sax and soprano sax transpose to the same key, they have the same fingering. This makes a tenor player able to play the soprano sax without learning a whole new fingering system. I don't understand why same fingering for all instruments can't be achieved without transposing, but this is the reason I got when asking an experienced trumpet player. | |
| CynBad -- 07/05/2005, 15:53:51 -- #16175 | |
| Uncle, that was my second guess. It sure is a pain, though. | |
| 7 -- 07/05/2005, 22:38:23 -- #16189 | |
| Uncle was correct in the fact that anyone who plays sax can play any sax with no change of fingering (the same is true of clarinets). However, the reason that Eb saxophones, Bb saxophones, etc. exist is simply (or actually not so simply) due to the timbral qualities of the respective bore lengths (which is a physics problem). A "C saxophone" falls roughly between the Bb tenor sax and the Eb alto sax in both size and range. Yet a C sax has crappy tone (relative to tenor or alto). Why? It has to do with the nature of the mass of the instrument vs the metal used vs the bore length. This is all very scientific, and the result of a great deal of research and experimentation. The same is true for the trumpet/tuba family. It is certainly possible to make a "C tuba" or "C trumpet", but it would not sound nearly as good. Did I mention that optimum bore length creates optimum tone? Remember that these instruments are resonant tubes, and a tube the wrong length does not resonate properly. | |
| SolArt -- 07/06/2005, 03:48:34 -- #16199 | |
| Because of what they're made out of, the thickness of the walls, etc? | |
| albetan -- 07/06/2005, 06:16:22 -- #16204 | |
| Good arguments, 7. rare C sax and C trumpet that i knew were silver color, no gold as standard instruments. All these wind instruments are resonant tubes... the same as pipes in a big wind organ... For sounding the lowest C you need a 32 feet tube. | |
| MysteriousDrC -- 07/06/2005, 06:27:05 -- #16207 | |
| "The same is true for the trumpet/tuba family. It is certainly possible to make a "C tuba" or "C trumpet", but it would not sound nearly as good." Actaually, most professional tubists play on C tubas because of the richer sound, and a C trumpet is not at all uncommon in a symphony orchestra. | |
| CynBad -- 07/06/2005, 08:04:56 -- #16213 | |
| The resonance of brass instruments really has nothing to do with why a C is being falsely referred to a Bb or a Eb. The standard fingering concept makes the most sense. | |
| 7 -- 07/06/2005, 14:18:04 -- #16227 | |
| It turns out I was misinformed. The reasons are too complex to go into. Scot should censor my last for for inappropriate content. | |
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