LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Improvising on a half diminished chord

charlp88 -- 08/04/2005, 17:00:12 -- #17288

One approach I was taught was to play the one and then play a major scale a half tone above it g l charlie

albetan -- 08/04/2005, 21:09:11 -- #17298

You are right: That's the halfdiminished scale.   Play it as the seventh mode of key a semitone upwards. C  Db  Eb  F  Gb  Ab  Bb  C Also you may improvise on minor sixth chord over third grade. So in Cø: Eb  Gb  Bb  C Also you may improvise on altered pentatonic: In Cø: Eb  F  Gb  Bb  C

Jazz+ -- 08/05/2005, 01:22:05 -- #17301

"One approach I was taught was to play the one and then play a major scale a half tone above it" You are describing the 7th mode of a major scale, called the Locrian mode, which is the traditional choice for  half-diminised chords. B half-dimished (Locrian from C Major) B C D E F G A Mark Levine prefers the Locrian #2 because he says it has "no avoid notes. B half-dimished (Locrian #2 from D melodic minor) B C# D E F G A It happens to be the vi mode of a D melodic minor scale (ascending) The short cut is to think of a melodic minor scale starting on the 3rd of the half-dimished chord.

sid -- 08/05/2005, 04:29:12 -- #17306

I once had an argument with Mark Levine about his choice of the #2.  He says the unadorned Locrian is old-style, but I and some of my chums think that natural 2 isn't an avoid note at all, and that an inversion of the F triad over B in the root  is a pretty contemporary voicing for B half-dim.  One way to look at it is that both 2 and #2 are available for improvised lines, neither is more correct than the other, and that a goal for everyone might be to loosen up enough to be comfortable with the whole chromatic scale as an open resource for making logical lines over any and every chord. sid

JB -- 08/05/2005, 08:41:16 -- #17313

Sorry if i repeat some of the good things said above (sid especially) but, here are the scales i like to use. They all have slightly different sounds/colours within them, the more you can hear, the more options you have. invent your own, if it sounds good to you then play it. Often the scale choice is affected by what chords come before and after. Locrian: B C D E F G A Locrian #9: B C# D E F G A (think of as D melodic minor, so you could try playing a A7 --> Dmin based idea within the chord to break up the structure of the tune) Locrian #13: B C# D E F G# A (i think of this as E7#13...) Locrian b11: B C D Eb F G A (to me this one is G7b13 or F7#11) remember chaps, learn  them all in every key. have fun ;-)

jaledin -- 08/05/2005, 11:23:14 -- #17320

Actually, JB's scales are proof that you *don't* need to learn any scale beyond locrian -- I think what JB is saying is that, depending on what you can hear, you can use a plain ninth, raise the thirteenth, lower the eleventh...pretty much whatever so long as the basic chord tones are left unmolested. A question for you guys who like the plain ninth on m7b5 chords -- almost every transcription I've done always uses the flatted ninth, but these are mostly pre-Coltrane-influenced players.  So what are some good recordings (be specific, if you can, as in which tune and so forth, so I can transcribe the solo where it's used for myself) for a pianist who would like to learn to appreciate the sound of the plain ninth, as opposed to merely finding the sound annoying, as I do now?

pianochap -- 08/05/2005, 11:54:34 -- #17321

Good responses so far. Here's my take. The half-diminished chord does indeed occur on the 7th degree of the major scale, but in tunes it generally occurs as a ii chord in a minor key. So the question could be expanded to "improvising over a minor ii V I". In the case of Bm7b5, that would suggest adding G# to your palette if you're thinking A harmonic minor. Randy H likes to teach "harmonic minor bebop" which has both 7ths (G and G#) and is the same notes as C major bebop. Now, the raised ninth (C#, as occurs in B Locrian #2, aka D melodic minor) is a very pretty tone. And as Mark Levine and others show, you can move voicings and melodic lines up a minor third for the V chord. i.e. on the E7 you are using Fmelodic minor. But I think Mark is a bit dogmatic about this, and doesn't discuss the harmonic minor at all in The Piano Book! While melodic minor harmony is great and hip, you're switching gears on each chord, and I sometimes think beginning players might be better off improvising over the whole ii V I (or at least the ii V) with the harmonic minor bebop of the key, and then adding the raised ninth to the mix on the ii chord. On the V chord, explore the effect of replacing the 4th and 5th with the b5. i.e. on the E7, contrast the A and B from A harmonic minor with the Bb from F melodic minor.

Jazz+ -- 08/05/2005, 12:50:11 -- #17324

Yeah, you don't want to hit a lot of E naturals when you arrive at the D-7b5 chord in Blue Bossa.

Jazz+ -- 08/05/2005, 12:54:37 -- #17325

Because all the other chords in Blue Bossa beg for an Eb,  suddenly using E natural on only the D-7b5 chord can sound pretty out of place or false.

JB -- 08/05/2005, 13:18:50 -- #17329

Actually, JB's scales are proof that you *don't* need to learn any scale beyond locrian Not sure I meant that, (what precisely do you mean by that?, if you mean 4octaves-parallel motion- classical piano type of learning then you have a point, but you wouldn't do that with locrian either) I would recommend learning the "sound" of all these different scales. What situation would you use #9? nat9? #13? etc Try them all out in the context of a tune and work out how to make each one work for you..(or not, as in  Enat on blue bossa, see Jazz+ above). Try to learn them by sound and not name, if you can hear it, then you'll be very close to playing it. (It's good to try them out when comping  behind singers especially a duo situation, then the pressure is really on to listen..) It's also important to respond as an accompianist to the soloist's scale choices, although this is something you need varied experience to aquire. There  are many scale choices for all sorts of different chords, Maj, min, 7th, diminished, half diminshed. It takes a long time to work though all the possibilities and play them at will by ear, but trust me it's worth it.

7 -- 08/05/2005, 13:23:36 -- #17330

Another use of the ø7 chord is simply as a minor 7th chord with an altered 5th. Lowering the 5th makes it crunchier, but it can still retain its quality and function as the original minor 7th chord in relation to the context of the surrounding chord changes. Which is to say that a m7b5 is very often found as a completely valid subsitute for a m7 chord (without having to be part of a minor ii-V-i progression). As such (depending on the context of the surrounding chords) you can use any of your appropriate minor scales (Aeolian, Dorian, Melodic, Harmonic) and simply lower the fifth in them. In cases like these, the nat2 sounds fine, whereas the b2 would yield a (possibly unwanted) Phrygian flavor. Playing a b5 over a minor chord is extremely common in the Blues, and always sounds great.

Dr. Whack -- 08/05/2005, 15:00:50 -- #17335

"Yeah, you don't want to hit a lot of E naturals when you arrive at the D-7b5 chord in Blue Bossa I hate to disagree so often, but I really disagree here.  That E natural is very cool and very effective in my opinion

Dr. Whack -- 08/05/2005, 15:05:07 -- #17336

- probably an F melodic minor type thingy

pphilip -- 08/05/2005, 19:54:42 -- #17342

Yeah the E natural is definately cool especially when you hit the resolving G7 in Blue Bossa.

JB -- 08/06/2005, 10:36:54 -- #17347

I think he meant if your playing the melody line of blue bossa, and so you don't want Enat in the voicing. That's what i meant anyway.. otherwise go ahead and play what you like as long as it sounds good to you and can make it work.

Jazz+ -- 08/06/2005, 10:42:56 -- #17348

Yes, I  don't much care for an E natural againts the melody note Eb. Wjhen it's time to solo I like both Locrian #2 (F melodic minor licks) and I also like Locrian licks (Eb Maj).

Dr. Whack -- 08/06/2005, 11:50:48 -- #17351

I guess we were talking about two different things.   The question was about improvising over the half dim chord.  I think you were dealing with chord vocing.   In any case though, the melody Eb in question is a passing tone and to my ears the E natural in the chord vocing would still sound pretty cool (dissonant)

Dr. Whack -- 08/06/2005, 12:04:48 -- #17353

What's more important to me is to never suggest a player not use certain notes.  All twelve of em can be used effectively, and their usefulness is in the ears of the beholder. "In olden days a glimpse of stocking what thought of as something shocking, now heaven knows, anything goes" :)

d3dy -- 08/06/2005, 12:55:55 -- #17357

I agree with 7...Ilove to alter my minor7s with halfdim.In my opinion,it works anywhere...

7 -- 08/06/2005, 13:56:17 -- #17362

Of course, you agree with me. You've seen what happens to anyone who doesn't .... ROFLMAO

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