Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: Rhythm

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Rhythm
tomwrush -- 03/05/2004, 13:23:43 -- #2139
I'm currently learning Wynton Kelly's 1961 trio recording of autumn leaves. Anyways, I'm taking some ideas and trying to work with them and inject them into my solos. Anyways the epiphany I had(which i'm sure you all have had) is that his sense of swing just blows me away. So I recorded my self playing autumn leaves and listened to his right before and after listening to my own and the juxtaposition of the two made me see how his playing flows and has great continuity, unlike mine. Enough rambling on to the question. What can I do to A: swing like him and B: swing like him. what factors do i need to consider when analysing my own progress? peace, tom
jmjelder -- 03/05/2004, 15:27:10 -- #2146
Tom, This might seem simplistic or worse but I believe in it. Keep doing what you are doing, that is, listen to Wynton, play what you hear in YOUR ear, listen to yourself, repeat the three steps. You will either swing more like Wynton or swing more like yourself. Neither will be bad. AND, eventually, you will swing more like yourself and like it. Joe
Mike -- 03/05/2004, 20:27:58 -- #2158
What one should do to answer your question is take a listen to Wynton and that I have not done. But in general we all tend to develop our distinctive swing characteristics by thinking in groups of four eigth notes. Of course I have no way of knowing if Wynton ever thought of his eight notes in groups of fours when practicing improvisation, but it is a common teaching tool when trying to get a students improvisations to flow more smoothly. So I reccomend listening for groups of four. Listen to hear if you can hear his eight notes this way or not. If you can... then from there you listen to see if he accents the first eigth note of the groups more than the next guy or the second or the third or the fourth. Is he more legato or staccato on any or all of the group of four. But you analise someones swing in terms of there groups of fours. At least this is how I would start out if I were undertaking your project for you. If that did not work ie if it really sounded like Wynton did not swing at all in groups of fours I would try to disern if there was any other common groups he used. Or any other way to organize how he swings. JM advise is great really, what I would add to it is ... after you listen to what he plays . Stop... let there be silence... Then try to play back a recording of it again in your head. Then try to sing it. See if you can accurately sing the swing feel. If you think you accurately sing then you have it and you will be able to play it, probally for ever.
tomwrush -- 03/06/2004, 14:23:02 -- #2174
thanks for the solid advice mike and jm- I have taken your advice on a broader level mike. that is that I've just been listening to how he accents the notes. What I decided is that his tendency is to accent the first notes while playing legato. He also will almost undoubtedly accent the highest note/notes of a phrase. What is so mind boggling though is how he swings those eighth notes, listen to his intro on the Hank Mobley album Soul Station, he seems to accent the offbeats a ton, but in a way that flows like mad. He's a bad motherfucker. In terms of dynamics he often starts out a phrase with loud accented notes and diminishes the volume as the phrase goes along. He also increases the volume of the higher notes of his phrases. Just some observations, but it's already helped my playing to swing harder. PEace, tom
Mike -- 03/06/2004, 18:12:51 -- #2175
ya, In general to swing well we end up putting an accent on the first note of our groups of fours. That is one of the things that can be so hard in develping a mean offbeat swing walking bass line player like Dave Mckenna... because he is laying down a serious back beat with his left hand while a subtle accenting the beat one with his right. If you let your right hand copy your left and accent the back beat the swing gets all screwed up.
tomwrush -- 03/08/2004, 18:09:09 -- #2219
Scot- What do you think is most important in terms of listening for accents? Mike- So the right hand sohuld still swing like mad right? put accents on the downbeats (1,3), and still the ands of beats? LH 1 (2) 3 (4) RH (1)(+) 2 (+)(3)(+) 4 (+) Is that a good model assuming (#) = accented note?? I guess I just thought that you always accented the backbeat... Are there any other famous players that use the groups of 4 approach? How do you develop a playing style like that? I'm just full of questions today... Thanks, peace, tom
Mike -- 03/08/2004, 19:36:22 -- #2220
I do not understand what you meand when you say "and still the ands of beats?" But no you definitly do not accent the backbeat melodically . If you have been doing this ... this has most likely been the biggest part of your problem with swing. Your question about any other famous players using the groups of 4 aproach... When I turned you on to this I was not saying this specifically about Wynton Kelly. It is a fairly common principle amongst a great many jazz educators and players that this is how it is done and practiced. It is something that I have had countless famous and not famous but none the less great educators or musicians teachers teach me about. Max Roach.... Inventor of Bebop Archie Shepp...... Famous Saxaphone player Roland Wiggins........ Teacher of John Coltrane Dave Frank..........Berklee teacher World touring Solo Jazz Pianist At any rate the biggest thing here is this If you keep accent the second and 4th beats of your groups of four eight notes you are going to sound about as much like Wynton Kelly swinging as Barbara Walters can sound like Stevie Wonder singing.
7 -- 03/08/2004, 22:34:07 -- #2226
I shook hands with Billy Preston once.
7 -- 03/08/2004, 22:34:54 -- #2227
But that was all. I didn't shake any thing else.
smg -- 03/09/2004, 08:28:02 -- #2241
A suggestion I posted on the old site was to get a hold of Miles's "Live At The Blackhawk" or another one featuring the WK trio(the one you're talking about will do as well,I just recommended that one because as far as medium-tempo swing,they give a master class on that one)and subject it to the "half-speed process"...use one of the many methods of doing this(see my file"Developing.." over at 360 re-this)record it at that speed,and listen to it a million times;learn a WK solo at that tempo and play it along with the recording,all at half-speed.The logic behind these processes is that the time-feel you want to internalize is something that has to be absorbed in a way that fundamentally deals with your sense of things,your own individual inner time concept,and this will do it.Hearing and "feeling" the accents,syncopation,etc.as they appear in "suspended animation" will allow you to develop a relationship with these aspects of WK's style,based in a large part on how he interacted with Paul Chambers/ Jimmy Cobb or one of the other great bass/drum teams that played together so often they developed the kind of intuitive s--t swinging like this depends on....make sure that whatever method you use allows you to amplify the half-speed version to a level that will permit playing along with it.........
Mike -- 03/09/2004, 09:51:33 -- #2246
7 Thats cool you shook hands with Billy Preston. But if that is relevant to this thread somehow I am not getting it?
Mike -- 03/09/2004, 09:53:40 -- #2247
oh maybe I get it now... you dont know if he did groups of four???
Mike -- 03/09/2004, 09:54:06 -- #2248
sorry I am a bit slow quite often.
Barry -- 03/09/2004, 10:18:31 -- #2249
I think 7 was just teasing your name dropping Mike.....
tomwrush -- 03/09/2004, 13:49:26 -- #2257
Mike- My current teacher has me do drills which involve playing legato eight notes with the and of each beat being accented. I just never thought about accenting notes that fall on the beat. peace, tom
Mike -- 03/09/2004, 20:04:37 -- #2265
your teacher most likely has a different goal in mind. It is unlikely that your teacher is suggesting that this be your how you play your regular group of four eights. That is a drill I would do to make sure that I am capable of finding the offbeats and accenting them when I want too as this is what syncopation is all about and a big part of Be Bop. But it is not what you want to practice for the develpement of flowing swing eigth notes.
Mike -- 03/09/2004, 20:08:54 -- #2266
I do not think that would have been 7s intention Barry. He would have known I was not name dropping because he would have read Tom's post to which I was responding before thinking I was name droping. Where Tom says "Are there any other famous players that use the groups of 4 approach? " So I think 7 knew I was not name droping that I was simply responding to the question and telling Tom the famous Players that I personally knew that had told me of the groups of 4 approach
tomwrush -- 03/09/2004, 20:42:17 -- #2267
Thanks for the clarification! I always wondered why I didn't sound like I was swinging when I played with just offbeat accents. Damn Mike you're the shiznit, how much do I owe you for that? peace, tom
dougmck -- 03/09/2004, 21:40:09 -- #2273
Tom I reckon that your teacher's advice is right on the money! Getting students to play eighth notes with accents off the beats is often the first step to having them sound like they are playing jazz. The tendency for most is to (usually) accent on the beat. But equally important, is the placing of the eighth notes that are off the beat - are they straight eighth notes or is it a shuffle type triplet feel with the 2nd eighth note on each beat on the 'a' of 'One-and-a Two-and-a ....'? Or maybe it is more like a dotted eighth on the beat, and the accented one is closer to a sixteenth note. Or some subtle combination of these And of course, how you place the R hand improvised line against the main pulse that you are laying down with your L Hand, or by the bass player. Is the melodic line ahead of or behind the beat. And the articulation - legato or staccato - or a combination of both. I think the best piece of advice is from smg or Joe above - play along with the CD track - at half speed - and try to 'absorb' the feel. There is a good Video of Andy Laverne's in which he discusses this. I have never heard of the 'groups of four' approach that Mike is so enthusiastic about, but then I have never rubbed shoulders with anyone who is famous! Doug
Mike -- 03/10/2004, 21:03:34 -- #2309
unfortunetely this medium is not always the best to teach in. And unfornately I can not share the experience of have a famous master like Max Roach who has been asked to explain how swing is so many billion times in his life that he can actually do it. and do it clearly, distintly, and briefly. For those not so fortunate to "rub shoulders with the famous" I can only try to recreate one of the times the subject came up. To the best of my recollection as this was about twenty years ago now. He drew fout eight notes on the black board and then he started to sing scat sylables.. I cant remember what they were... but you know what I mean... something like Ya ba do ba, Do ba da ba.... etc and then he started snaping his fingers on two and four. Then to top that off I remember when he was standing right in front of me .. thats when he started tap dancing. Not to fancy at first but he got going pretty good and he was not too young even back then. By the time he was done he had put on a Rhythm show like none I had seen and with no drum kit. Then he kind of faded everything out and sat down at the piano ended with a few of the most beautiful french impresionistic (I think is what he called them) piano voicings I have ever heard. When you cant rub shoulders with the famous maybe look for some of these tell tale signs as well as the obvious listening you should be doing...... Ever hear of the Coltrane digital paterns??? EVer notice how those are groups of four eigth notes he was playing?? Why werent his digital patterns groups of three or 5 or 6 or 7??? Because groups of 4 are the natural group for playing flowing swing eight lines. In sum you do not have to rub shoulders with famous people to learn about groups of four. If you are the sort who likes to re invent the wheel simply transcribe many swing improvisations by improvisors that are albe to play extendes flowing swing melodic lines. Coltrane, Pat Martino, Lennie Tristano, etc etc , etc..... When you are done see if you can break the lines down into groups of four eight notes. For example In Coltrane Solos frequently you may find runs of digital paterrn after digital pattern, another words group of 4 after group of 4. The thing is for an advanced artist the groups are there even when they are not playing the notes... this is what keeps the flow going.
Mike -- 03/11/2004, 07:24:46 -- #2334
and, by the way Tom, you owe me nothing of course, the pleaure is mine if i am able to help.
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