| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Getting both hands to work together | |
| loveforJAZZ -- 08/19/2006, 12:38:18 -- #29374 | |
| It's always a bit frusturating doing rythymic punches and kicks with the left while soloing over the chord changes with the right hand. I always get bored because I can't accomplish this, and then soon after, I quit practice. Can anybody give me a few suggestions on this, plz? | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/19/2006, 13:22:14 -- #29374 | |
| This works, practice soloing over the "Red Garland" left hand rhythm "+" pattern until it is about effortless. Then you feel comfortable with up beat LH rhythm punches and all variations will feel easy and natural after that. It works. | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/19/2006, 13:22:26 -- #29374 | |
| It takes time. | |
| loveforJAZZ -- 08/19/2006, 13:39:29 -- #29374 | |
| Where can I find that? | |
| sdm -- 08/19/2006, 17:42:53 -- #29374 | |
| I think what he means is hitting your LH chord on the "and" of 2 and 4 (rather then on the 1 and 3) in anticipation of the next chord. It doesn't so much matter what voicing you use -- a simple 1-7 is fine. Just get very comfortable with the anticipation. Nothing to it (but practice!). | |
| jazzwee -- 08/19/2006, 22:55:24 -- #29374 | |
| Personally, I find that the key is not to think of the two hands as completely independent. What I do (now), is to think of the two hands as coordinated so that I stab at the LH chord, when the right hand is not busy. In other words, I'm not stabbing chords on a fixed pattern but trading with the RH. I originally noticed this from Brad Mehldau (a guy known for hand independence), and found out that this is actually more common than I thought with other musicians (Benny Green comes to mind as another example). This becomes more obvious as you see them playing live or in videos (look at BradMehldau.com for videos for example). BTW - as Jazz+ said, the left hand has to get to the point of effortless chords on the LH for this RH/LH coordination to work well, since 90% of your attention will have to be focused on the RH solo. | |
| loveforJAZZ -- 08/20/2006, 07:19:00 -- #29374 | |
| So, all your doing is just playing a little phrase in a solo and when the phrase ends, your just filling it in with some of the stabbing? Am I correct? Nice videos of Brad Mehldau | |
| jazzwee -- 08/20/2006, 09:36:03 -- #29374 | |
| Yes, it is an example of a style. Bill Evans does this too. Maybe he's the original source. This is not the only way to comp on the left hand. You could also have a consistent rhythmic pattern, which means the LH is 100% on autopilot, which I might do if the syncopation on the LH is important to the groove. But even here, you can play with dynamics, making it louder during empty moments, making it softer when you want to accent the RH. | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/20/2006, 12:23:52 -- #29374 | |
| Yes, get the left hand on autopliot first with the Red Garland LH chord style on the "and" of 2 and 4. If you can't do that yet, you won't be comfortable playing the LH punches more freely for accents and fills. Practicing this alone it is helpful to tap your foot steadily on the beat to give yourself an anchor or meter to place the offbeat LH punches in reference to. | |
| thejaffer -- 08/21/2006, 15:29:17 -- #29374 | |
| There's no such thing as 'independence', what you have is coordination and inter-dependence between different parts. (Drummers don't split their brains into 4 parts and think of each limb independently) If you've got a complex rythmic figure between the two hands, think of it as a melody passing from one hand to another (sometimes joining) don't try and seperate the two, it doesn't work. | |
| CynBad -- 08/21/2006, 16:10:00 -- #29374 | |
| Somehow, "stabbing" and "punching" and "kicking" don't conjure up images of artistry or musicianship. | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/21/2006, 19:25:27 -- #29374 | |
| 'Kicks','hits' and 'punches' are common musical slang. The 'kick' comes from the drummer's bass drum. 'Hits' are the accents played on the snare drum and a drummer's cymbal is often called a 'punch' cymbal. Jazz big band directors use these terms all the time and I have heard many musicians use them all my life. | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/21/2006, 20:34:02 -- #29374 | |
| "Drummers don't split their brains into 4 parts and think of each limb independently" They do and they don't. I play drums too and I often break down the parts to become conscious of what each limb is doing. Putting it all together in realtime it does become one part of parts. But a part of your mind can still be observing independant parts. The steady beat in the right hand can be put on auto pilot while the brain gives more notice of the trickier syncopated limb. After a while it all tends to go on auto-pilot... | |
| CynBad -- 08/22/2006, 08:48:31 -- #29374 | |
| Ah, it's a drummer thing. That explains it. I was picturing some sort of Kung Fu School of Music. You don't hear those terms in classical music or solo piano, really. | |
| thejaffer -- 08/22/2006, 09:28:30 -- #29374 | |
| Sure you can observe the independent parts when you can already play it, but the quickest way of learning rhythms is by thinking as much as possible in terms of a single melody. Singing is very useful with this kind of thing. You can teach a kid to play 5 against 4 or 3 against 5 etc.. in about 20 seconds by just singing the composite rhythm to them as a melody. To then apply it across the two hands becomes a lot easier. eg. chanting the phrase "not difficult" over and over without stopping gives you 3 against 2. Once you can hear it (as you have to if you want to sing it) you can play it easily. I recommend programming polyrhythms into sibelius or some drum machine and the singing along to them.. Here's an idea, try tapping a 2-3 son clave (say L.H.) and a 3-2 rhumba clave (say R.H) at the same using two methods. First try tapping the LH for 4 bars, then RH. for 4 bars back and forth then try thinking about and playing both clave at the same time. It probably won't work. Then try writing it out as a melody and sing/chant it (bo - LH, da - RH): |:da bodabo da|bo daboda bo :| 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 You'll play it right first time..!! Forget that the hands are playing clave at first, just play the melody. Then after a while begin to gradually shift your mind's attention from one hand to the other (any autopilot should happen at this stage) and listen to the individual clave ryhthms. Rhythm is a very interesting subject that is neglected in most jazz method books in favour of harmony (eg. mark levine), yet it's by far the most important aspect of the music. | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/22/2006, 11:56:57 -- #29374 | |
| Excellent lesson, thejaffer. | |
| jwv76 -- 08/22/2006, 17:43:03 -- #29374 | |
| VERY COOL! You're right, I played it right the first time! What syllable do you suggest to use if both rhythmns are on the same beat, say if you're doing a 2-3 son clave against a montuno rhythmn, the downbeat of 2 on the 2 side and the upbeat of 3 on the 3 side? | |
| SolArt -- 08/23/2006, 03:10:12 -- #29374 | |
| thejaffer...2 against 3 is easy, but I differ on "You can teach a kid to play 5 against 4 or 3 against 5 etc.. in about 20 seconds by just singing the composite rhythm to them as a melody." Have you? Most ADULTS cannot do these (5-3, 5-4) in much more time (I've tested on MUSICIANS). He who can sing 5-3 is dedicated. And singing 5-4 is just about an "Accelerating echo-type thing". Polyrhythms often have too close of overlapping beats to sing easily. I love polyrhythm & use them but it's not so easy as you state to teach them, IMO. | |
| thejaffer -- 08/23/2006, 06:41:48 -- #29374 | |
| "Most ADULTS cannot do these (5-3, 5-4) in much more time...I've tested on MUSICIANS" That's likely to be the problem, because they think too much :) When you teach kids they have no reference points and so everything is equally easy/difficult. They don't find playing in 7 or 11/8 any harder than playing in 4 for example... In the west, nearly all music is in 4 and that's how we all start learning. After a while we do it without thinking. Imagine we started playing our instruments in 11/8 9/8 and 7/8 for the first couple of years (as they do in eastern europe/balkans.. where a lot of folk music is in odd-times). It would become second nature. 5-3 is not intrisically any harder than 3-2, it's just less familiar... Try putting a 5 against 4 rhythm into some music software and loop it. Create a half hour track of the rhythm repeated. Play it on your walkman/ipod on your way to work and sing/chant along to it.. (ignore the funny looks you'll get on the bus :)) Do this for a couple of weeks... believe me after that it's a piece of cake and you'll do it without thinking. Bear in mind we play/listen to music in 3/4 and 4/4 all the time.. that's the ONLY reason why it's easier to us.. | |
| JPez -- 08/23/2006, 06:54:59 -- #29374 | |
| sorry for the basic question.. what does that 5-4, 5-3, 5 against 4 mean ? | |
| thejaffer -- 08/23/2006, 08:32:27 -- #29374 | |
| sorry, should have explained better what i meant. It's a simple polyrhythm, so 3-2 or 3 against 2 means quarter notes at the same time as quarter note triplets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm | |
| jwv76 -- 08/23/2006, 13:57:23 -- #29374 | |
| All I can say is that in the above exercise, it worked. If you had asked me to play a 3-2 rhumba clave against a 2-3 son clave I would have gone about it the exact same way the jaffer described in the first example, playing the left hand by itself, then the right hand, then watching my head spin while I try to do both at the same time. Learning the chant took a minute or two, but that's because I'm reading it. If someone were to sing it to me I and most people would pick it up nearly instantly. Once I had it in my head to sing different syllables on different beats it was very very easy to play the different syllables with different parts of my body. I don't see why any polyrythmn would be any different. The difference is that in the first approach you are learning two seperate rhythmns, and then trying to integrate them, but in the second approach you are learning ONE rhythmn and assigning different parts of it to different parts of your brain, and then your body. | |
| thejaffer -- 08/23/2006, 16:19:31 -- #29374 | |
| oh just realised Jpez that the 3-2 and 2-3 in the context of the clave rhythm means something completly different. The 3-2 / 2-3 is not a polyrhythm here, but means either forward (3-2) or backward (2-3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clave_%28rhythm%29 | |
| cazort -- 08/24/2006, 19:47:07 -- #29374 | |
| I like what jazzwee said about coordinating the two hands. One thing I think can be very effective (and versatile) is to pair the chord in the left-hand with a specific note in the melody you are playing with the right hand. When it feels right, match the chord so that the top note of the chord is the note you play in the melody...this way you don't have to think about two different things going on separately. You don't want to do this too much. You can alternate it with leaving spaces in the melody, and playing a chord then. This way you have a slight pause so your brain isn't stretched trying to focus on too much at once. Another of my FAVOURITE things to do is what Monk does a lot--play the chord at a completely contrasting time to the melody--for example, you're playing a melody in eight-notes and you place the chord down maybe a sixteenth before or after some note. I find that often I get frustrated in the same way you do--and it's a sign I need to practice playing the chords more, or practice melodies to the chords. Sometimes I slow it down and try...or I play the piece through just playing chords, or playing chords while improvising VERY simple melodic fragments. Then as you get more comfy, you can start doing what you actually want to do. | |
| SolArt -- 08/25/2006, 12:18:49 -- #29374 | |
| Here is something else to think about...we're in 6/8 time: The LH plays 6 eighth notes but phrased at every two, & accenting the first of every two. The RH plays 2 dotted quarter notes. Compare this to playing the same but the LH phrasing at every three, & accenting the first of every three (easier by far). | |
| SolArt -- 08/25/2006, 12:33:51 -- #29374 | |
| And...try this, we're in 4/4 time: A simple quarter note line in the bass but the pattern has 5 notes; Low C (up a 5th) G (up an aug 5th) D# (up a half-step) E (down a major 6th) G. Play it fairly quickly AND accenting the first note in each measure. Therefore in every coming measure the next note in the pattern is on beat one & accented. So after five measures you're back to having C leading. This is tricky but sounds rocky cool & interesting. 'Just an example of what can be done with music & is not a polyrhythm but down that alley somehow. | |
| SolArt -- 08/25/2006, 12:39:13 -- #29374 | |
| Now play RUBATO blues scale stuff over this last post if you're able; my hat's off to you! Now this is the kind of stuff worthy of admiration. | |
| SolArt -- 08/28/2006, 07:02:13 -- #29374 | |
| ? | |
| SolArt -- 08/29/2006, 04:24:41 -- #29374 | |
| :( | |
| FransE -- 09/11/2006, 03:21:38 -- #29374 | |
| Anyone have some suggestions to polyrhythm music that one simply must listen to? | |
| thejaffer -- 09/12/2006, 12:33:39 -- #29374 | |
| I'd recommened two things, 1) Afro-Cuban music 2) South Indian Carnatic music (be prepared for a headache with this one, the rhythmic sophistication of these guys puts nearly all jazz musicians to shame. Also as it's probably unfamiliar, it's probably wise to get some information on how the music is constructed as well) | |
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