Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: Keeping the form

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Keeping the form
jwv76 -- 09/07/2006, 11:20:38 -- #29690
I'm always blown away by people/groups that can take a solo completely "outside," to the point where the form is barely even recognizable, and yet still know EXACTLY where they are in the form. Also, guys who seem to not even be paying attention during the drum solo, but still know exactly when to come back in. Last night I watched this group play Cherokee at some ridiculous fast tempo, probably somewhere around 300, my head was spinning trying to listen and anticipate where the bridge was supposed to be. I have a hard enough time remembering how many A sections to play on a simple AABA form even at medium tempos. Some times I'll be soloing, and be completely convinced that I'm dead on in the form, listening to the bass and drums, locking in, and I get to the end of my solo, and I get a look from somebody in the band, like "hey man, you still got eight bars to go." During drum solos I try to tap my foot, count, sing the melody in my head, but if the drummer plays too many rhythmns in a row that stretch over the bar lines I still get lost easily. Any tips, comments, suggestions?
CynBad -- 09/07/2006, 11:26:39 -- #29690
Not that I can do it, but I think these people are hearing the "form" in their head and playing along with it. The audience can't hear the "backstage" band in the player's head, but the player can hear it.
Jazz+ -- 09/07/2006, 12:59:40 -- #29690
Like CynBad said, they can hear (feel) the form as it goes by. If it is a familiar tune and AABA 32 bars it's not hard. If it is an unfilmilar tune or an odd form then most will menatlly keep track in some way. Jazz players can hear (feel) 4 bar phrases. Practice hearing 4 bar phrases. Once you can do that you will know where the 8 bar phrases are. Don't count every beat at fast tempos, feel (count) the half note pulse or the whole note pulse, it's much more relaxing and easier. I often do count casualy on drum solos because I don't hear anybody playing changes. I count bars of fours (not the quarter notes) a little like a percussionist will wait for 73 measures in an orchestra for a single cymbal crash. Except I am keeoing in mind 4 bar phrases as parts of 8 bar phrases wich are parts of sections.
Jazz+ -- 09/07/2006, 13:02:57 -- #29690
I count bars sort of like this: \|\| 1 uh uh uh \| 2 uh uh uh \| 3 uh uh uh \| 4 uh uh uh \| \| 1 uh uh uh \| 2 uh uh uh \| 3 uh uh uh \| 4 uh uh uh \|\| 4 bars twice = 8 bar section I don't think "1 2 3 4 ", I just keep track of the numbers of bars and I actualy don't need to keep count because I can feel a 4 bar unit.
7 -- 09/07/2006, 15:04:54 -- #29690
I'm always amazed by (and very appreciative of) drummers that "play the changes". A couple of guys that I play with regularly are so musical that you literally hear the chord progression as they work their way through each drum solo. It sure makes it easy to know where to come in, and it is astounding how they manage to make the kit sound as if they are actually playing chords and melodies. I think part of the secret is the way they build up to the next chord change. Part of the drummer's job is to help announce both to the band and to the audience that "a chord change is coming" and the way a pro drummer sets that whole thing up (whether during a solo or during normal playing)is very probably one of the big tricks to creating a truly musical (and easy to follow) drum solo.
Jazz+ -- 09/07/2006, 15:38:54 -- #29690
Good point,7. A good drummer will give you "sign posts" for the sections. Typicaly they will do a little roll at the end of every 8 bar section into a soft crash on beat 1 of the next 8 bars. However many drummers won't mark the form and just play thru and across the bars freely. They take more of a continuos soloist approach than that of a accompaniast. There are bass players similar in style, those that listen and make the form very clear and those that play like they are soloing their chops whole tune, with that type it can be very hard to hear the changes.
sykora -- 09/08/2006, 00:07:43 -- #29690
When I first started playing with combos, even tunes like "So What" were impossible for me to follow. I could/can improvise over forms playing solo piano but in a group setting my mind focused so much on "comping the correct chords" that I found myself lost in the form as I tried to be creative with comping correctly. So the more you get familiar with a tune and the way certain people play it, the easier it is to follow along. Sometimes even today I start walking bass or striding during my solo because frankly if I'm soloing then I feel like I can pretty much do whatever the hell I want. I have an audition for my school's jazz combo on Monday and I'm pretty sure my complete apathy towards "comping properly" will be frowned upon.
nihonjin -- 09/08/2006, 02:48:55 -- #29690
"Part of the drummer's job is to help announce both to the band and to the audience that "a chord change is coming" and the way a pro drummer sets that whole thing up (whether during a solo or during normal playing)is very probably one of the big tricks to creating a truly musical (and easy to follow) drum solo." Well I don't think it's the drummers job to keep the form.The rest of the band should be able to do it themselves. I also think its nice if the drummer sometimes does not play the resolution points but play over them. I creates an interesting forward motion.Sometimes It just gets too mecanical and stiff if the drummer always plays in phrases of 4 or 8 bars. Of course we are not talking about beginner level here. It's perfectly understandable that the beginning improviser would like some mecanic drumming which can help them holding there place. Nihonjin
Jazz+ -- 09/08/2006, 11:12:17 -- #29690
Drummers marking 8 measure phrases are 'laying it down.' Drummers that don't phrase 8 bars and play right thorugh are playing 'freely.' Neither is neccessarily stiff or mechanical. So What is easy to get lost in.
SolArt -- 09/08/2006, 11:17:17 -- #29690
My oh my 7, welcome to the hairline crack between craziness & genius. My opinion jwv76--- if your solo has come to an ending the band should fast-forward to that spot; OR the bass etc. should do a spontaneous solo to fill in this "void". Especially on stage. Are you talking about rehearsals or performances?
sdm -- 09/08/2006, 17:19:07 -- #29690
An exercise we did at the workshop last weekend comes to mind here. It was over a simple 12-bar blues. The drummer played dotted-quarter notes over the entire form. The participants were to clap at the top each time around. The idea was to be able to keep the form in spite of the polyrhythms. If you can get a friend (who can do this) to give you the dotted-quarters, it’s good practice.
nate_smith -- 09/08/2006, 20:53:49 -- #29690
i was so happy the other day i had my jazz combo audition and was able to play all the changes and not get lost. i was so happy its weried latley i can tell when someone starts a new chorus, i don't get lost NEAR as much as i use too. i'm so happy i just am able to play and keep up with everybody.
Kai -- 09/09/2006, 01:54:20 -- #29690
Well done!
thejaffer -- 09/10/2006, 08:19:26 -- #29690
"The drummer played dotted-quarter notes over the entire form" I'd certainly recommend this sort of idea. Try extending it further so you play "quarter note + dotted quarter note" ie. a rhythm in 5/8 over 4/4. You can do this sort of practice away from the instrument by counting and clapping ie count: 1 2 3 4 \|1 2 3 4 \|1 2 3 4 \|1 2 3 etc clap * * * * * * * * * * * * (This is an illustration, don't try and read this as you do the exercise, try and feel it) Check out some records where they do this sort of thing and keep your place either by playing along or counting(eg. Jack DeJohnette on 'Scrapple from the Apple' from Jarrett trio album 'up for it' or Mehldau/Rossy trio (when i fall in love?) in spain and their version of 'Anthropology') I agree with nihonjin, it's not the drummer's responsibility to give you the form. It's your responsibility to count, if you keep losing the form then you need to practice it. If you need more help counting through drum solos (and we all do sometimes) then ask your drummer to help you out by all means, but remember you're restricting their creativity by doing this... (Listen to Roy Haynes on Chick Corea's "Now he sings, Now he sobs" or Jack DeJohnette with keith jarrett, and in fact nearly all modern jazz drummers, they're not playing 'nanny drums' for the rest of the band) As for your predicament jwv76, i'd suggest playing more simple and melodic solos, and phrasing more deliberatly in 4 and 8 bar chunks. play the changes clearly with as few notes as possible, always thinking structurally. At least at first. (i haven't heard you play so i may not be right here, but very often piano players try to play too many notes and can confuse themselves. I know i've been guilty this in the past, and i come across it with other players often) Also, when you listen to records, don't do so passively , but actively imagine you're in the band playing. Don't lose your place in the form. (Try this with Brad Mehldau's version of All the things in 7, or John Coltrane's Giant Steps or even more straight ahead stuff) When i have time i will put up some of the rhythm exercises/ideas that i have found useful.
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