LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Scales on Blues

nokturn -- 09/11/2006, 10:15:24 -- #29751

Hi, What scales do you guys play on a Blues Progression? I play the Blues scale on I and the Minor Pentatonic Scale on the sixth throughout the whole progression). Now I find that sounds a little boring after a while. Probably because I lack creativity or because I just started really getting into it and I don't have the chops. Either way I must ask if you use some other scales or tricks which give you the most desirable funky sound. PS.: I've recently joined my school-jazz-band and the pianist sounds incredibly cool and funky - tihout great (almost any deeper) theory or voicing knowledge. Am trying to sound like he, but just don't know where he gets his ideas from.

Jazz+ -- 09/11/2006, 10:52:20 -- #29751

In adition to the two you mentioned I use a lot of the Dominant 7th Bebop scales. Also chromatic passing tones, enclosures, fragments of diminished scales, bebop arpeggios, Bill Evan's arpeggio, Peterson's arpeggio.  And some quotes from famous blues heads that I like. I also think of that various changes (ii V for example) that can be fit into a bebop blues and outline those with my soloing. || F | Bb7 | F7 | C-7 F7 | | Bb7 | Bdim7 | F7 Bb7 | A-7 D7 | | G-7  | C7  | F D7 alt | G7  C7 alt ||

savage -- 09/11/2006, 12:38:01 -- #29751

Can you explain bebop arpeggios, Bill Evans arpeggios and Petersons arpeggio? Thanks.

jwv76 -- 09/11/2006, 15:11:45 -- #29751

I would concentrate on learning the mixolydian modes for each chord in the progression before getting too far into bebop scales, reharminising, etc. In C play a C mixolydian scale on the I chord (F major starting on C), F mixolydian on the IV chord and G mixolydian on the V chord.

jwv76 -- 09/11/2006, 20:52:51 -- #29751

Guess I didn't exactly read the original thread all the way through, the mixolydian mode isn't necessarily going to sound "funky," but knowing it inside and out will give you a good base from which to generate all sorts of cool ideas.

Jazz+ -- 09/12/2006, 10:47:00 -- #29751

Bebop Mixolydian adds a single passing tone to the Mixolydian and makes it sound hipper, IMO.

Jazz+ -- 09/12/2006, 12:06:23 -- #29751

C7 bebop mixolydian scale: C D E F G A Bb B C fingered: 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, etc.

thejaffer -- 09/12/2006, 12:27:40 -- #29751

"I've recently joined my school-jazz-band and the pianist sounds incredibly cool and funky - tihout great (almost any deeper) theory or voicing knowledge" - He's probably got good time "Bebop Mixolydian adds a single passing tone to the Mixolydian and makes it sound hipper, IMO" the whole point of 'bebop' scales is to allow all the chord tones (C E G Bb - for C7, G B D E for Gmaj ie. G F# E Eb D C B A G) to be placed on the beat in a continuous 8th note run. this requires an extra passing note to be added to the ordinary scale making it an 8 note scale. When playing a solo you need to communicate two things: 1) A good rhythmic feeling (meaning consistent time-feel and locking with the band's groove) 2) The chord changes, by highlighting the chord tones ie. placing them on the beat within 8th note or 16th note runs. (remember that 'emphasising' here doesn't mean accenting, if anything accent the non-chord tones on the off beats, if the rhythm is good, the ear will pick out the notes that are on the beat. It should swing too) I wouldn't normally recommend aebersold's stuff too highly but Vol 2 is all about the blues, and there is a clear analysis of a charlie parker solo, worth checking out. It's always worth remembering that good changes-playing is as much about having good time, as it is understanding harmony. Remember the concept of "harmonic rhythm". As for the blues, just transcribe stuff, and copy things by ear. All theory is hindsight. Worry about what scale you're playing later on. For now copy and play what sounds good to you.

nokturn -- 09/12/2006, 14:56:55 -- #29751

Hey, thanks for your replies. About the bebop scale issue. I heard of "the" bebop scale, being basically a plain major scale with an added flat 7. Never quite experimented with it, maybe because it didn't really make sense to me (because of the two 7). Anyways, thejaffer, you say that the idea behind this simply is to put the chord tones on the beats in a run? Now in your run you lowered the 6. Now why does "the" bebop scale lower the 7? thejaffer: you're pretty damn right - he's got a good time. Uses freaky self-invented voicings. As I said, the guy's just funky (even solo), and I can't really imitate him. The problem is, I sit in front of the 88 keys, have my changes, and some voicings I learned mostly from Levines piano-book, and I just can't decide what to do. There's so many possiblities, and I just don't hear anything in my head that I could put to life.

nokturn -- 09/12/2006, 15:05:27 -- #29751

Ah, I forgot. Do you have any recommendations for good piano blues or funk(-blues) stuff? I have The Headhunters and a Pinetop Perkins album.- I am quite limited to the local library's repertoire.

Jazz+ -- 09/12/2006, 19:03:27 -- #29751

"The problem is, I sit in front of the 88 keys, have my changes, and some voicings I learned mostly from Levines piano-book, and I just can't decide what to do. There's so many possiblities, and I just don't hear anything in my head that I could put to life. " That is why I suggest you toy around with the Dominant Bebop Scale. You asked for a scale in addition to the blues scale. The bebop scales sound best when descending in them, try it.

thejaffer -- 09/13/2006, 03:19:43 -- #29751

Try this experiment: play the notes C D E F G A in two ways. (both swing 8ths, count yourself in each time) 1- Place C on beat 1 (E- beat2 G -beat3) 2- Place C on the offbeat of 4 (and therefore D,F,A on beats 1,2,3) To me the first one sounds like it's in Cmajor and the second sounds like Dminor, yet it's just playing the same notes. Playing good lines/phrases means to be able to outline the changes by placing the more harmonically valuable notes on the beat. (especially beats 1 and 3) 'bebop' scales are what result from this process. Hal Galper's forward motion book suggests that you should be aiming to 'hear the chord tones' that you want to place on 1 and 3 in advance and forget about the rest. Eventually your fingers will just fill in the blanks for you (including chromatic passing notes etc.), and it tends to flow/swing more. Now why does "the" bebop scale lower the 7? It doesn't. The starting scale has a flat 7th already - the mixolydian scale. The natural 7th is added to allow both the tonic and flat 7th to be placed on the beat. original scale: E D C Bb A G F E D C It's not possible to place the E C Bb G E C notes all on the beat in a continuous run -> put a Bnat in between C and Bb E D C B Bb A G F E D C All the chord tones are now on the beat. You can call this one *THE BEBOP SCALE* if you like, but i wouldn't bother. It's the process that's important, which can be applied to any scale and chord. For funky voicings, you can't do much better than herbie hancocks earlier blue note stuff.

anacephalic -- 09/15/2006, 11:54:51 -- #29751

I tended to use dorian mode of the I chord almost exclusively for a long time.  that gives you a flat 3 and flat 7 on the I chord. The same scale also is the mixolydian of the IV chord. It works great for rock and over the whole 12 bar blues. You can spice things up getting outside the dorian scale by playing the flat 3 against a natural 3, as well as a flat 5 against a natural 5 helps add bluesyness. Kind of like mating the dorian with the blues scale.   You can also focus on the mixolydian on each chord as indicated above to get a more dominant focused flavor. Minor pentatonics work nicely as well.  I just went over a lesson on pentatonics where you play the root pentatonic up a whole step and up a fifth (i think) to target different chord tones.  I'd have to look at that one again to be sure on the offsets. Funkiness, to me, is more of a feel timing thing than what notes you use. A number of years ago when i started tearing into modes i realized that since each mode represents the chord formed when you harmonize a given scale from one of the intervals of that scale....ie harmonizing a major scale diatonicly in thirds from the second note (dorian mode) gets you a minor 7th chord. That being the case i started to focus on the chord tones with some approach/tension notes thrown in and let the scales take care of them selves. The more i work on that approach the more i see the relationship between various chords and i find myself using a lot of arpagios and superimposing triads or other chord fragments over the actual chord i'm playing over. Charlie Christian played a lot (all??) of his solos using this approach.  Being based on the chords my solos seem a lot more coherant and tied to the tune compared to when i just wanked on scales without consideration of the underlying harmony. YMMV but it helped me a lot

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