LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Green Dolphin St.

Hush -- 09/20/2006, 07:19:16 -- #29943

Hi to everyone I'm learning this song in Eb and i will like to hear your opinion, comments, etc about this scale/chord relationship. This are the chords I have in my lead sheet. Ebmaj7 = Lydian Eb-7 = Dorian F7 = Mixolydian Emaj7 = Lydian F-7 = Dorian Bb7 = Mixolydian Ab-7 = Dorian Db7 = Mixolydian Gb7 = Mixolydian D-7b5 = Locrian G7 = Mixolydian C-7 = Aeolian A-7b5 = Locrian D7 = Mixolydian G-7 = Dorian C7 = Mixolydian Thanks in advance Sniper

savage -- 09/20/2006, 12:33:10 -- #29943

In general, i would not play mixolydian on dominant chords that resolve to a minor chord a fifth down, like the G7 and the D7. I would choose Mixo b2b6, spanish phrygian or altered for those chords.

jace -- 09/20/2006, 12:59:26 -- #29943

here is a video of a guy playing it solo. http://youtube.com/watch?v=3rPcNSx6Png

Hush -- 09/20/2006, 13:46:58 -- #29943

Yeah you're right... Cause it's a minor II-V-I I'm at work right now so I can't see the video here, i will watch it asap. thanks, Any other ideas with scales that can be used instead of the one's i posted.?? Sniper

jwv76 -- 09/20/2006, 14:46:52 -- #29943

I would use the Ionian mode on Eb major. The lydian scale is more consonant, but the Ionian is more grounded, it sounds like the I chord. When you play a lydian scale over a major chord it sounds like you're playing a IV chord. It's nice to use the raised 11th for color, Miles did that a lot on this tune, but the Ionian mode should be "home base." You can use the Ab in your melodies (it bugs me when people call it the "avoid" note) just don't begin or end your phrases with it.

thejaffer -- 09/23/2006, 11:21:38 -- #29943

"but the Ionian mode should be "home base." " Why do you think that is? Traditionally it has been, through classical music and back to medieval times. But only because the tritone from the tonic was named the "devils interval", by religious zealots of the period. I think we've suffered (or blessed, depending on your outlook) by that decision ever since. When jazz musicians around the late 30's and 40's (who played by ear consequently played what they most naturally 'heard') began to resolve onto the lydian mode, a chap called George Russell wondered why they heard that sharp 4th as the most natural landing point. He wrote a very large tedious book called the "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization" which argues that western harmony took a wrong turn in about the 15th century. It was very influential among jazz musicains in the 50's and 60's. If you organize the Major scale modes in order of bright/resolved to dark/unresolved you get: Lydian Ionian Mixolydian Dorian Aeolian Phrygian Locrian

jwv76 -- 09/24/2006, 03:01:49 -- #29943

Well, basically, in the Ionian mode you have two notes that are a minor 2nd from a chord tone, the minor 2nd creates a "pull" towards whichever note is less dissonant. As I said, yes, the Lydian mode is more consonant, but the presence of the natural fourth in the Ionian creates more tension and thus more resolution. Same principle as in classical harmony a melodic minor scale has a major 6th and major 7th ascending and minor 6th and minor 7th descending, when ascending the major 7th resolves to the root, when descending the minor 6th resolves to the 5th. Try playing a vamp between a C major7 chord and a B major7 chord. Because the F# is present in the B maj7 chord, the ear will naturally tend to hear that note implied in the scale for the C maj7 chord, and also vice versa, the E natural in the C chord will be implied in the scale for the B chord. So the natural scale choice for the C chord will be Lydian and for the B chord Ionian. Between these two chords the direction of resolution will be towards the B chord, B maj7 will sound more "at rest." Now try playing a vamp between C maj7 and Bb maj7. The E natural in the C chord will be implied(sound more natural) in the scale for the Bb chord, and the F natural in the Bb chord will make more sense in the scale for the C chord. In this case the direction of resolution will be towards the C chord, it will sound more "at rest" than the Bb chord, despite the fact that root movement down in whole steps tends to resolve the other way. Ever played "Killer Joe" (by Benny Golsen), gotten to the end of the tune and wondered "how the heck do I end this tune?" The melody and the cadence suggest that it should resolve on the Bb chord, but it sounds unnatural to do so. In minor the same relationship exists between the Dorian and the Aeolian modes, the Dorian is more consonant, but the Aeolian sounds more resolved.

jwv76 -- 09/24/2006, 03:24:06 -- #29943

Rethinking the first thing I said "in the Ionian mode you have two notes that are a minor 2nd from a chord tone" I guess the same thing is still true in the Lydian scale, but the resolution is ambiguous, a sharp 11th does nor clash with the fifth, but a natural 11th clashes with the 3rd (illegal minor 9th!! Call the police!) and creates more tension, thus more resolution.

thejaffer -- 09/24/2006, 07:14:16 -- #29943

and creates more tension, thus more resolution. I think that with the Ionian mode (say in C) you could happily resolve on C,E,G,B,D and A but not the F nat which wants to pull back to the E, but with the Lydian mode you can resolve on any note including the F#. in context of G7 --> Cmaj  the F in the dominant chord can resolve up to F# or down to E. I would say C maj lydian would be a good choice with this progression because you emphasise the difference between the two chords making the change really clear. If you vamp on a C major you have three options 1) Use ionian and use the in-built tension and release of the scale (ie. imply G7 --> Cmajor in the lines you play) 2) Use the Lydian mode and have an ambiguous modal floating quality to the harmony (think ECM) 3) Use a variation of the lydian mode (add a #5) and imply the minor cadences: E7 -- > Amin with A melodic minor or (add a #9) B7 --> Emin with E harmonic minor My personal preference would be with 2) and 3) depending on the tune. It depends how contemporary you want the harmony to sound i suppose.. I think i've still got some examples if you look in my personal room "the jaffer"

jwv76 -- 09/24/2006, 13:56:36 -- #29943

If you vamp on a C major No I'm saying if you play the two chords next to eachother, alternating between a C maj chord and a B maj chord, C maj will resolve to B maj, but if you alternate between C maj and Bbmaj the Bbmaj will resolve to C maj, and the reason for this has to do with the implied scales, when the implied scale for C maj is the Lydian scale the chord itself sounds unresolved, but when the implied scale for C maj is Ionian it sounds resolved. Those are just two examples. If you alternate between Cmaj9 and Abmaj6 the 9th in the C chord, D, will be implied in the scale for the Ab chord (lydian) and the 6th in the Ab chord, F, will be implied in the scale for the C chord (ionian). In this case the Ab chord will resolve to the C chord. I'm not saying you have to use those scales, this is just my understanding of how and why non-diatonic chords resolve, I was taught this in a music theory class I took years ago taught by Jim Knapp, the Seattle based composer/arranger.

DoubleZ -- 09/24/2006, 15:16:04 -- #29943

More importantly, does anyone know what drugs Bronislau Kaper and Ned Washington were on when they named this song?  Something hallucinogenic I'm sure!

thejaffer -- 09/24/2006, 16:23:32 -- #29943

If you vamp on a C major No I'm saying if you play the two chords next to each other.. etc i'd veered off at a tangent and was talking about something slightly different by then...

ziggysane -- 09/24/2006, 22:22:01 -- #29943

Was written for a movie of the same name.  I assume the street was a main plot point.   Still one of my favorite song titles ever though.  Very imagery heavy.

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