| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Which keyboard/Workstation?! | |
| jazz jasper -- 10/11/2006, 04:18:59 -- #30427 | |
| Hello I passed an audition and got into a pro-band, the only thing is that I have a crappy sound module and when were doing pop tunes or jazz tunes where I need a decent sound for strings, vibes, rhodes, hammond, etc, i don't have anything good enough. The band leader suggested I got a Korg M1 to start off with as the sounds are decent, but I think it may sound a bit dated but Im not really to know as I have no experience what so ever is keyboards. Should I get a workstation and if so which one? I have a roland XV-2020 sound module but its a bit rubbish, please give me some advice for a decent workstation at a reasonable price (i live in the UK!) Thanks Jazz | |
| anacephalic -- 10/11/2006, 08:15:21 -- #30427 | |
| i got a killer deal on a Kurz 2600 a while back. It is way overkill in most areas as the syth capabilities are mind boggling. The sequencer is also pretty deep. THe 88 key version is also extremly heavy. The sounds, especially acoustic instruments are great, however. one of their PC series boards may be worth looking into as a performance oriented mobile alternative. | |
| jazz jasper -- 10/11/2006, 10:36:54 -- #30427 | |
| Thanks, Ive been advised to go with either a korg M1 or a Nord - Id love a nord but i know there pricey! Ill have a look at the kurz 2006 so thanks, if you know of any others with amazing sounds please let me know! | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/11/2006, 21:01:40 -- #30427 | |
| I have a crappy XV-2020 too. The Internal sounds are indeed rubish. But if you install the SRX-11 Expansion Board you will suddenly have the best sounding Fender Rhodes clone in hardware. I also added the SRX-11 which holds the same acoustic piano samples as Roland's finest digital piano to date, the RD-700SX. I have own the Yamaha P250, P120, Kurzweil PC2X and Kawai ES4. For gigging, my XV-2020 loaded with SRX-11 and SRX-12 trumps them all, IMO. I use an eraly version action in the Roland FP2 as a controller. The only editing I discovere I needed was to lower the Velocity threshold (-5) on the XV-2020. I am a jazz pianist and therefore I play Rhodes and piano. I have not played organ, vibes, Wurlitzer or Clav for many years and hope to never have to again. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/11/2006, 21:03:14 -- #30427 | |
| Correction: Roland's SRX-12 is the Rhodes Expansion Board SRX-11 is the Piano Expanison Board I also have a Yamaha Motif. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/11/2006, 21:05:18 -- #30427 | |
| I used a Korg M1 for years in R&B pop bands. in the late 80's. It is totaly unsuitable for jazz. Avoid the M1 ! The main genre still using it is Mexican pop music. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/11/2006, 21:09:36 -- #30427 | |
| SRX-12 (Rhodes $225) SRX-11 (Piano $225) What speakers do you play through? They make a huuuuge difference for the piano sound. Piano samples are in stereo now days and suffer in mono, they get a hollow weird megaphone effect in mono. The Rhodes sound is far less picky in terms of what speakers you use. It works in mono with even with cheap amps. | |
| alhaynes -- 10/12/2006, 08:22:44 -- #30427 | |
| Electronic pianos typically sound too "tinkly" when played thru PA speakers. Of course, if you're in someone else's band you may not have final say on sound reproduction equipment. | |
| LoFi -- 10/12/2006, 08:57:17 -- #30427 | |
| My gigging board is a Roland RD700SX, which I got for about £1150 from Digital Village (since you're in the uK), after a fair bit of ringing around and haggling (though this was over a year ago - I imagine the prices have dropped a bit since then). The two main acoustic piano sounds are amazing (I marginally prefer the "Superior Grand" to the "X-whatever" one). The Hammond sounds are pretty awesome too - it's got the same modelling sound engine as Roland's VK-series, but you use the zone sliders as drawbars (I'm considering adding some MIDI drawbars), and the modelled leslie's pretty good. The only drawback is you can't use overdrive and leslie at the same time, for a classic "Deep Purple" type organ sound (less of an issue for jazz, I'll admit). The EP sounds are a little weaker (seem to lack the "bark" I'm after), but not at all bad for the smoother stuff. I'm considering investigating the SRX12 board for this. The other board in this class is the Yamaha S90ES, which gets good reviews, and has more in the way of deep editing - it's really an 88-note synth, rather than a stage piano. (The Nord stage would also be comparable, but is twice the price). When gigging, I use the RD's balanced outs to go to the PA, and monitor through Fender guitar amp (it doesn't have to sound great for me - I just need to know what I'm playing). My sounds are complimented a great deal more often than my playing... | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/12/2006, 09:28:07 -- #30427 | |
| The RD-700SX would be my first choice too, but it's heavy. So I use the SRX-11 and SRX 12 in my XV-2020. | |
| Mike -- 10/12/2006, 09:30:52 -- #30427 | |
| If playing in a band I question the decision to get a workstation unless you are planning on incorporating sequences into the band arrangements. If not I suggest staying away from workstations and stick with boards and modules. | |
| jazz jasper -- 10/16/2006, 08:27:56 -- #30427 | |
| Thanks for all your advice, I have brought a Korg M1, its mainly for pop arrangments and for the pop side of our music, were doing a cruie on the Queen Mary 2, so if anyone is going on a cruise, look out for the keyboard player cos soon it will be me! I hope the Korg is as good as the reviews say it is, anyway if anyone thinks Ive made a massive mistake please let me know! Also I think illbuy the SRX 12 board if the rhodes sound is that great ill need it! Thanks Jazz+ its so nice to meet some one who also has the same crappy module as me!! | |
| SolArt -- 10/17/2006, 05:38:36 -- #30427 | |
| "Electronic pianos typically sound too "tinkly" when played thru PA speakers." Untrue! After all this IS what the public hears. Whatever makes you say this? It depends a lot on the EQ settings, & I let my wishes be known, ie."Can I have less mids, less bass & more highs, sounds too "honky" like this." When playing with bands it's important to not have too much bass on the low end or else the band may experience TWO bass players more or less when you dip down in there. | |
| SolArt -- 10/17/2006, 05:47:14 -- #30427 | |
| Also if I notice I'm not being heard out front (some sound men suck), if I say something about it & get no results I simply lay my monitors (w. bullet tweeters, horns, & a 15" woofers) on their sides, turn 'em up and take care of it myself! LJP... My playing is OK! | |
| alhaynes -- 10/17/2006, 10:06:05 -- #30427 | |
| Ok. I'll modify this to "I've heard a lot of tinkly sounding pianos played thru PA systems !" | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/17/2006, 13:47:11 -- #30427 | |
| I've heard mostly tinkly sounding DIGITAL pianos played thru PA systems and keyboard amps. They tend to sound thin and muffled or thin and too trebley. | |
| SolArt -- 10/18/2006, 03:08:03 -- #30427 | |
| alhaynes, when you say "Electronic pianos", what do you mean? Jazz+, compared to real ones (pianos) the comparison fits, especially from the players perspective of sitting close to the monitor/s or speakers, but I find out front where the sound is combined with the other instruments (or not when solo playing)) & is "bounced around the vicinity" they sound damn convincing; at least their tuning is out'ta sight. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/18/2006, 09:39:46 -- #30427 | |
| Agreed. It's from my perspective as the player that digital pianos sound pretty bad (thin, muffled, bright, hollow, etc). | |
| alhaynes -- 10/18/2006, 11:45:30 -- #30427 | |
| Maybe I should have said "stage piano". What I was really getting at was that the frequency response of most PA speakers is a little bright, and there is usually a low bass roll-off. A little eq on the keyboard channel would probably fix this. It may be that bands often play so loud that the "tinkle" is all that gets thru the mix ! I agree that always being in tune is great - but should you select "stretch" or "standard" tuning when playing with other instruments ? Al | |
| jazz jasper -- 10/18/2006, 11:57:25 -- #30427 | |
| Hey all, I thought i'd update you one my M1's. I brought 2 off ebay for a good price although one of them hadn't been tested as it was 110V the other one was in mint condition. However after waiting almost a week, the courier delivered them today and after opening them up Ive found out that the courier has destroyed both! Snapped the power circuit board inside the M1's. So now it is going all the way back to where it came from to be looked at so im on the hunt again! I can't belive it, has anyone got any other ideas than the M1? is it worth saving up and getting a Nord workstation?! Thanks Jazz | |
| signal11 -- 10/18/2006, 14:29:29 -- #30427 | |
| Having owned a variety of Korg gear over the years (including an M1), you might see if you can track down an old Korg 01/W. It's very similar to the M1, but it's more powerful and it has a greater variety of sound options. I still have a rack-mount 01/WR and it still sounds great. The 01/W was used on a ton of pop records in the early 90's. Of course for jazz playing, people are still going to have to pry my Nord Electro from my cold dead hands. This love playing this keyboard. | |
| signal11 -- 10/18/2006, 14:31:04 -- #30427 | |
| Oh yeah, if you're looking at an 01/W, make sure the backlight still works---they tend to go dim (although they can be replaced apparently). | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/19/2006, 09:26:33 -- #30427 | |
| I still don't understand what style of music you need sounds for. You say "the pop side of our music". What does that mean? Pop is a huge genre, what is the number one most important sound you are seeking, and wjhat is number two and three? Are you planning to play any melodic jazz solos? | |
| jazz jasper -- 10/19/2006, 10:07:09 -- #30427 | |
| I'd say the most important sound is going to be a good string sound followed by a good hammond and then a good brass sound, then rhodes, and finally brass and vibes, at least, then synth sounds. What keyboard do you suggest for that, im only going with an M1 on recomendation, id love a work station for composing too, can someone explain to me what exactly it does and if theres anything better than a work station, as I said i am a comple novice! | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/19/2006, 13:35:44 -- #30427 | |
| What is your budget? I owned two M1 keyboards for years. Here are my recolections: Strings - good for live with full bodied pop synth strings sound (not a classical string sound but rather pop). Bruce Hornsby used the Korg string live sound for years(O1W has similar strings.) Hammond - M1 organs are not really a Hammond type sounding organ, but they do have some power cutting funk abilities (I prefer Roland D50 organ) Brass - popular with Mexican pop (I prefer Roland D50 brass) Rhodes - M1 EP does not sound anything like a Rhodes, it's a digital hybrid EP, ok for playing chords but bad for soloing. Piano - good four loud pop and rock bands, it really cuts, similar samples as used in SG1 digital piano Fretless Bass is decent Vibes are decent | |
| rokarion -- 10/19/2006, 15:39:46 -- #30427 | |
| I foolishly purchased an Alesis QS8 a few years ago. I really dislike all of the sounds on it except for the truegrand, which I think is not horrible. I wonder, is there is any type of expansion out there that can make this axe not suck? Or do I need to scrap it in favor of the motif, which I really like? I'm primarily interested in rhodes, hammond, and acoustic piano sounds, anything additional would be considered a novelty bonus. I also have the Korg X3 but its only 61 keys and the samples sound dated to me so I hardly ever use it. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/19/2006, 22:00:25 -- #30427 | |
| The QS8 does not have a decent piano or Rhodes. I would sell it. The top digital pianos for jazz, all with good piano and Rhodes sounds are: Roland RD-700SX Yamaha CP-300 Kawai MP8 The Motif piano is more of a rock/pop piano: too bright and agressive for jazz. The S90ES piano is nice for jazz and trumps the Motif piano. | |
| rokarion -- 10/20/2006, 01:14:11 -- #30427 | |
| Thanks Jazz, You may have saved me a bundle. Unfortunately, my QS8 is next to worthless as the brand new QS8-2's are going for $799 and mine met with an unfortunate accident with some squirrels in college (they ate some of the rubber buttons). Maybe I'll give it to a friend. | |
| SolArt -- 10/20/2006, 06:43:15 -- #30427 | |
| "I agree that always being in tune is great - but should you select "stretch" or "standard" tuning when playing with other instruments?" That's a good one. Due to the fact that the notes won't match anyway with the other instruments I guess either one. However try this... Play an arpeggio to that particular high note (your brain expects an excellently tuned pitch for the "landing") in each setting & select the one that's truer. I use this same technique to tune the highest and in reverse the lowest octaves of a piano. I find this superior to "taking the waves out" which results in flat or sharp notes. | |
| hepcatmonk -- 10/20/2006, 13:34:08 -- #30427 | |
| jazz + Why is the s90ES better for jazz? I was under the impression that primarily the Motif ES' piano sounds were featured on the s90ES. What's the difference? Or do you mean S90ES vs. Motif and not Motif ES? As for the original question, I have a Motif ES, which I use for most pop gigs. I have a nord electro 2 which i love: through the right equipment the rhodes sounds great. The acoustic piano is not good but allright for background (not lead) piano playing, although you can EQ it to be passable on a ballad. It would be THE keyboard, I think, except that there's no strings, or brass, if you control those through a module, you'll be in business. The clavinet, wurly, and organ are phenomenal. And at only 20 pounds, you won't break your back. | |
| kongwee -- 10/20/2006, 22:02:25 -- #30427 | |
| I got Roland Fantom S88. I see many people buying so bought one. Anway, it has very good sequencer to capture your idea. You can design your sound if you dig into it. The weight key is a bit lighter compare to Korg or Yamaha, which don't feel closer to acoustic piano.For gig only, you can just look for digital piano. | |
| elprimito -- 10/20/2006, 23:55:17 -- #30427 | |
| I play with three different bands; an 18 piece jazz band, a 5 piece jazz band, and a latin dance band. I also work with some local school districts with their yearly musicals. I use a yamaha s90 running into a barbeta keyboard amp and also a crate amp, via a little berhinger mixer that sits atop my keyboard. The piano sounds fine through these keyboard amps. I used to use the berhinger "truth" monitors and they sound very nice, but the keyboard amps have more punch. In my rack I have an E-Mu sampler and an old Roland RD200 (I think) That old roland module has the best chorused ep that I've ever used. I've always been very picky about my piano sound and I think I'm finally happy with it. Another possibility is a fast laptop with some of those fabulous vsti's, like the Scarbee C.E.P. fender rhodes. That thing is amazing. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/21/2006, 00:07:10 -- #30427 | |
| The Yamaha S-90ES has a new 32 MB piano not found in the Motif ES. It is a improvement and step forward. These four top of the line models trump all the previous older models and the lower priced models. Kawai MP8 Roland RD-700SX (add SRX-12 card for top Rhodes in hardware) Yamaha CP300 Runner Up: Yamaha S90-ES All of the above are only as good as the fidelity of the stereo speaker system you play them through. Keyboard amps are very low on the fidelity totum pole. Higher quality full range PA speakers make a substantial difference, such as powered EV SXa360 speakers. | |
| savage -- 10/22/2006, 14:20:54 -- #30427 | |
| hepcatmonk: I bought a Nord Electro 2 yesterday. The sounds are great but i have noticed that the black keys are slightly more velocity sensitive than the white. I have to strike the white keys harder to get the "bark" sound. Is yours that way too or is there something wrong with mine? | |
| rokarion -- 10/25/2006, 15:24:04 -- #30427 | |
| I spent about 10 hours at the guitar center testing out the roland rd-700sx, yamaha cp300, and yamaha s90-es yesterday. They didn't hae the kawai. My conclusion: yamaha s90-es wins. The yamaha cp300 has nice samples, but is more of a dry sound, with far less variety. There was a nice rhodes sound, but not the best I've heard, and there was only one. The rest were wurlitzer and clav style sounds that i didn't particularly care for. I like to mix up my sounds more than that. The Roland 700sx was my second favorite because of the nice built in drum machine and the larger range of high quality samples. The S90-ES Has a much more finished and full sound, probably a result of the built in effects processors. Unless you are an expert at effects processing, I recommend the S90 because it will sound phenomenal out of the box, whereas I believe the Roland and the CP-300 would require a great deal of tweaking in order to sound stage worthy. My two cents. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/25/2006, 16:49:27 -- #30427 | |
| It's all different sounding playing live. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/25/2006, 17:11:05 -- #30427 | |
| Isn't it odd that Yamaha would put a better piano sound in the older S90ES work station than their brand new dedicated digital piano the CP300 ??? Maybe it isn't so. Headphones can very misleading, it's not what it sounds like through speakers, especialy live. | |
| pphilip -- 10/25/2006, 18:06:54 -- #30427 | |
| Hey Signal 11 AfterI heard you and other people talking about the Nord Electro 2 I ordered one. It arrived tonite and it is great. I like the electric grand setting for Jazz and the B3 sounds just like Hammond I had in the '70's without the heavy lifting. Thanks for the information. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/25/2006, 19:34:38 -- #30427 | |
| Good luck trying to play it like a piano with that action and velocity scale. The dynamic range between pp and ff is pretty darn hard to control. It's jumpy. | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/25/2006, 19:35:15 -- #30427 | |
| The Electro is a good little organ, but I hate it for piano and Rhodes. | |
| signal11 -- 10/25/2006, 20:28:02 -- #30427 | |
| Actually, one of the reasons why I really love my Nord Electro is that it is *totally* different than playing an acoustic piano. In fact, I simply treat it like a completely different instrument altogether. Thus, instead of futzing around with all of this nonsense about trying to get a keyboard to sound exactly like an acoustic piano, I simply go out there and have fun on the Electro--accepting it for what it is and making interesting music. I always have fun with it. Plus, it looks cool and it doesn't break my back ;-). | |
| Jazz+ -- 10/25/2006, 21:20:53 -- #30427 | |
| I never expect a keyboard to sound like a piano. That's why I use the Rhodes sound. Yes, the Electro is totally different than playing a piano or a Rhodes. It has a much more jumpy velocity response. Its touch response jumps from pp to ff with barely any range in between. I had an Electro but sold it because the action was too jumpy from pp to ff. | |
| hepcatmonk -- 10/30/2006, 08:15:42 -- #30427 | |
| savage -- Yes and no -- the black keys are in theory louder on an unweighted keyboard because they are higher up. for all intents and purposes, your fingers will hit the black keys with more velocity because they're higher up, and usually most (acoustic) piano players have a different way to control volume that takes the resistance from the keybed into account; the net effect is that we hit the black keys "louder". I had this problem; I ended up having to do a bit of practice away from the real piano and on the nord, doing hanon, pischna, and czerny until i just got used to playing it and controlling it. Now I feel really comfortable with my dynamic control, although you really do have to treat it like a completely different instrument. | |
| SolArt -- 10/31/2006, 02:07:45 -- #30427 | |
| Since black keys are shorter they have less "swing" at their ends. When we play piano keys we contact them at various places. Like when we play an Eb in root position we're pretty high up on the "G"" key. Not much you can do about it. In fact, just play, as the notes have their own character anyway. We just naturally adjust. Who can track all of this anyway? | |
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