Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: Technique question for classically trained players

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Technique question for classically trained players
jwv76 -- 11/11/2006, 14:26:18 -- #31097
I work out on Hanon exercises pretty much daily, in all 12 keys, etc., it's been part of my warm-up routine for quite some time now. Lately I've started to really think more about technique, about they way my hands are positioned and the way they feel while I'm playing, like for example I noticed recently that my right thumb was locking up when I wasn't using it, I've been making a conscious effort to keep that finger relaxed. My question is is it normal to feel a little extra tension in your weak hand (for me the left), especially in the wrist, as if that wrist is having to work harder than my right? I posted a question here some time ago about some residual soreness after practicing, I haven't had that problem much lately. I notice that in my right hand my wrist is a little higher off the keyboard and it is bent slightly down. In my left it is lower to the keyboard and bent slightly up. When I try to lift my left wrist a little higher initially it feels like that hand is having to work even harder and I have less accuracy, but maybe I just need to practice that way more. I guess my question is whether it is considered correct technique for the wrist to be bent slightly down, straight and not bent at all, or bent slightly up. Thanks.
wutrain -- 11/11/2006, 14:39:15 -- #31097
dude if ur getting less sore then you're obviously progressing a lot, which is totally great. i think over all both of your hands should be like.. almost straight... i mean when you're actually playing its gonna change as you move around at all. i think mine go very slightly down because its just less effort that way, and you don't really benefit from being up there..and the left is always naturally hard to work on if you're a righty. i still can't keep up at all with my right. you look at a lot of those self taught greats and they usually don't have perfect form. in fact some of them make me cringe. but they're superb at playing and thats really what matters. technique effects how you play yeah... but if you don't have a teacher theres not much you can do about it.
CynBad -- 11/11/2006, 17:54:40 -- #31097
The only way to work on good technique is with your ear. Don't get hung up on the physical stuff. And dude, you're doing way too much Hanon.
jazzwee -- 11/11/2006, 21:21:45 -- #31097
jwv76, I'm dealing with some technical questions too because of heavy practicing. But I have to say, I'm surprised at where you are getting your soreness. I have no soreness or fatigue whatsoever in my wrist. Most of my fatigue comes to my shoulders back, chest, and lower forearm (never upper forearm). Even this really disappeared as I learned to relax more. I really got it more from exercises rather than actual playing. I think there may be something wrong. I'd personally keep my wrist straight.
dnarkosis -- 11/11/2006, 21:35:40 -- #31097
I never had any classical training and have dealt with similar problems. This DVD was a good investment for me: http://www.freeingthecagedbird.com/ Not a silver bullet, but very helpful at least for me; more than anything, it has raised my awareness about the physical aspects my playing.
johnmarkpainter -- 11/11/2006, 22:23:30 -- #31097
jwv, Be REALLY careful. I have injuries from over-zealous playing when I was a kid (and I'm only 39 now).
jwv76 -- 11/12/2006, 02:17:05 -- #31097
Well,thanks for everyone's concern. Jazzwee, I'm not really having soreness issues, I was having them a few months ago, I think the problem was I was working a full time job then and binge practicing on my days off from work. I'm not working so much right now, just practicising on a more consistent daily basis, and I haven't had any problem with soreness after practicing. All I'm saying is that while working on technical exercises I feel like my left hand is working alot harder than my right hand, and my question was whether that was due to the natural weakness of my left hand, or because of my hands posture. I generally have good posture as far as my neck and back goes. I was thinking about it more today, and it seems like the elevation of my wrists changes all the time, like if I'm playing a tenth in the left the wrist bends up, the hand gets lower, closer to the keyboard, there's no other way to reach that tenth. When I've seen other pianists play who I consider to have good technique, it seems like their hands are raised a little higher off the keyboard and there wrists are bent down slightly, hence my question. Cynbad, I spend plenty of time working with my ear, listening, transcribing. Like I said, I use hanon exercises as a warm-up, to bring my hands, body and mind all into focus together. To me technical exercises are more an exercise in concentration than a physical exercise, the increased finger strength and accuracy are merely a side benefit. I find that if while working on technique I culivate a mindset of effortlessness, of playing without thinking, that that mindset benefits my playing as a whole, particularly improvisitation. It's not what you practice, but how you practice, I'm convinced.
jwv76 -- 11/12/2006, 02:19:55 -- #31097
"improvisitation" I think I just improvised a new word, lol
Mike -- 11/12/2006, 05:41:52 -- #31097
If there is any tension anywhere it is time to stop practising period. Do not begin again until you find the tension and get rid of it. practising with tension is almost as bad as practicing with pain. It is not what it is about. We are not weight lifters . We are not trying to build muscles in the way that muscle builders do. Actually it is quite the opposite. We are trying to train our muscles to be completely relaxed so they can best respond to instructions from our brain.
wutrain -- 11/12/2006, 06:25:52 -- #31097
... maybe i practice too hard. what injuries can you get?
wdennissorrell -- 11/12/2006, 11:37:30 -- #31097
There are many injuries that are associated with piano playing. The most common are carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, back and shoulder injuries. Almost all of these are preventable, there is some evidence that you may be predisposed to develop certain injuries due to your specific anatomy as dictated by your genetic complement. Some pianists never play again due to the severe nature of their injuries. If you always play exactly the same way over and over, especially if it is with a lot of force and speed, you will injure your body. Piano playing is a total body endeavour and you can injure and damage yourself in places that you never imagined. The best piece of advice for the treatment of an injury is the acronym "RICE". Rest, Ice, Compression, and Elevation. Also using an NSAID will help (e.g. ibuprofen, aspirin, naproxen sodium, etc.). That said, you will find some interesting practice tips on 7's site that may help alleviate any injuries (not practicing as long with more frequent practice.). Keep your posture proper and relax as much as possible. Although piano playing is indeed not weight lifting as such, it is indeed an athletic endeavour. Peace out!
wutrain -- 11/12/2006, 14:59:23 -- #31097
yeah ive been worrying about carpel tunnel lately.. how can you tell if you have it? can you have a tiny bit of it but not like uh. full.. carpel tunnel..? cus i have wee little wrist issues but not so big. yet.
Styles -- 11/12/2006, 19:06:15 -- #31097
There are many kinds of technique. Hanon is good for finger technique but I'd also incorporate other styles in there like the Chopin-esque gravity touch, like lift your hand a little off the keyboard and just let it drop on the note. It takes time to play like this accurately, but you will achieve a different tone from the piano, a full beautiful tone. Then many jazz pianists play from above the keyboard almost punching each note. Bebop players ecspecially. So think about playing with your hand always lifted off the keyboard. This is percussive playing, with dynamics less important. Also classical phrasing technique, where your wrist drops in the middle of the phrase and then lifts at the end of the phrase. Chord hits and block chord solos can be played conventionally for a smooth sound, but sometimes it's good to be climatic with these type of things. Playing a bunch of chords isn't just finger control its playing with your whole body. It's okay to use your whole arm to get momentum in there. Check out Hiromi's block chord segment of her solo on If...available on Youtube. Also for finger-technique "finger twisters" will help alot in addition to Hannon. Where as Hannon is a single pattern sequenced across the keyboard, playing Bach and Charlie Parker(who were very closely related musically), Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown, Bela Bartok will get your fingers used to doing things they aren't used to. Play this type of stuff slowly and accurate and then gradually increase speed.
wutrain -- 11/12/2006, 19:36:25 -- #31097
could someone tell me what a block chord is? sorry, im still new to this.
wdennissorrell -- 11/12/2006, 20:39:44 -- #31097
To put it simply, the carpal tunnel is a narrow space which houses the median nerve and tendons. The median nerve controls the thumb, index finger, middle finger, and the proximal half of the ring finger; the ulnar nerve controls the rest of the hand. If those tendons become irritated they will inflame and put pressure on the median nerve. This will cause numbness, tingling, and/or pain which can be localized or radiated. You can have a varying degree of symptomology depending on the severity of the swelling and nerve impingement. Symptomatic relief should come with the treatment I listed before. If it is severely symptomatic you should seek medical care immediately. I would advise you to seek the advice of your family doctor and then ask to be referred to a neurologist if your doctor is not able to diagnose and/or effectively treat your problem. Medical intervention can run the gamut from resting to splinting to medication to injections to surgery with all being appropriate in certain specific situations. You can investigate further online, I hope this helps. Peace out.
wutrain -- 11/13/2006, 13:52:50 -- #31097
how much tingling? like really noticable tingling? i think i feel a tiny bit of a tingling sensation when i keep my hands perfectly still. i dont get numb though.. just that feeling that i always have to crack my wrists (like some days ill just always have that weird feeling in my wrist that says CRACK ME NOW)
wdennissorrell -- 11/13/2006, 15:38:11 -- #31097
Please do not get paranoid, the tingling does not solely justify a diagnosis of carpal tunnel. If you want to "crack" your wrist, go ahead; you will not harm yourself as long as you don't violently do it.If you have a mild tingling feeling you may want to try some simple measures to relieve that issue. You may have the beginnings of carpal tunnel or you may not. At this time you nor I have enough information to make that determination. With your present symptomology I would not be overly concerned. The advice given for treatment modalities will not harm you in any way whatsoever. Please google carpal tunnel syndrome and receive the information as to stretches and exercises that you can do to alleviate your symptoms; being fully aware that if your symptoms are alleviated it does not confirm any diagnosis of carpal tunnel issues. Now is the time to intervene; not when the symptoms are manifested more severely. Also alternative medical treatments have much anecdotal support in their efficacy, chiropractic, yoga, acupuncture, etc. Do not, please DO NOT become obsessive about your symptoms at this time. Just react accordingly and treat your wrists a little nicer. Peace out!
Scot -- 11/13/2006, 15:38:48 -- #31097
Don't crack your joints! Jeez. Do you know why your joints feel good after you crack them? Because you're addicted to endorphins. You do so much damage to a joint (knuckle, wrist, back, neck, whatever) when you crack them and release those necessary gasses in the tissues, that your brain releases endorphins to help take away the sensation of pain. Do yourself a favor, kick the habit now. Now, when practicing things like Hanon, which is great for technique, remember this. Hanon is generally a closed technique. So after you do Hanon, work on arpeggios, an open technique. When exercising, it's important to use all the muscles. If you only move your fingers in intervals of a 2nd or 3rd, then you're going to cause physical problems. Make sure that after scales, Hanon, or other closed technique, that you hit your arpeggios, walking 10ths (as best you can), the Rachmaninoff exercise, etc... Even though we're not building weight lifting muscles with our fingers, the idea is the same. Do you work out? Think about all the different kinds of movements a good weight training regiment includes. Small movements, large ones, close, open, etc... that's the way to go about total training. Think of your hands that way when you're practicing. On some basic technique that will help you not injure yourself: 1. Don't sit too close. If you can press on your ribs with your elbows, you're sitting too close! Put a 2x4 board on the floor in front of the piano or something so you don't sit that close. 2. If your wrists are in an "up" position when you're playing, then your bench is too high. Don't dangle your fingers. If anything, go the other way and have your wrists dangling a little bit. It will also help with staying loose. 3. Stay loose! Your wrists and arms should be like noodles. If there's any muscle tension at all, stop and fix it, figure out why it's happening. Usually it's because your brain is getting stressed out over something you're trying to work on and that stress is manifesting in your playing muscles. Recognize it for what it is and tell it to go away. 4. Stay loose up high too! Ever notice your shoulders trying to cover your ears? Relax those shoulders. Get up off the piano bench and wheel your arms around. Get some blood flowing. Don't tense up your shoulders and neck. You'll be hurting for sure if you do that. There's more, but that should get anyone started.
wutrain -- 11/13/2006, 17:11:11 -- #31097
whats walking tenths? i remember something to do with stride... for a lizst piece i have to go up the scale while hitting tenths (instead of octavies.. but my hand only barely reaches the 10 so i have to do a little jump) and conking out some chords on the right... is it something like that? except slower?
johnmarkpainter -- 11/13/2006, 19:23:09 -- #31097
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :) I have a friend that is a Symphony Cellist with bad tendonitis. He is going to have to take a Hiatus to let it heal. I work with a Piano player that has a a bad shoulder and has to ice his hands after shows (he plays really hard). I work with a Trumpet player that has to wear a compression brace around his neck because he ruptured muscles. I have Tendonitis in both hands and a bad elbow from playing Bass. Don't be paranoid, but do be observant. If you are in pain, STOP practicing and stretch, ice your hands, practice sight-reading in your head....whatever. jmp
Scot -- 11/13/2006, 22:59:03 -- #31097
wutrain- yeah, like that. If you have to jump a little, that's OK. Use the pedal to cheat but make it sound good and even.
Mike -- 11/14/2006, 00:03:30 -- #31097
it is not a matter of practicing too hard. it is a matter of practicing wrong. But the fact that you think of it that way is not a good sign.
wutrain -- 11/15/2006, 16:58:43 -- #31097
think of it what way.?
johnmarkpainter -- 11/16/2006, 21:18:52 -- #31097
<<it is not a matter of practicing too hard. it is a matter of practicing wrong.>> I get what you are saying but that is overly simplistic. All sports and musical instruments/vocalists have some demanding elements that aren't necessarily wrong. Just demanding. If you practice those elements for too long, without taking rest breaks you can still injure yourself even with perfect technique (though who REALLY Has perfect technique anyway?) jmp
Mike -- 11/17/2006, 00:21:16 -- #31097
I respectfully disagree one hundred percent. I used to often play solo piano all day and night. Start off the the day with a Wedding ceremony, then play a coctail party before a wedding reception. Then play and afternoon reception. Then play an early evening solo piano gig, then play a late evening quartet date. People would often think that must be imposable... that my fingers must get tired. Not at all. Not even remotely. If you play with the proper technique your fingers should never tire even a little bit. They will also never be injured. This is just fact. If you notice any fatigue in your fingers. If you notice any pain You are quite simple playing/ practicing wrong. You need to go to a Great piano teacher for a technique adjustment. This is not like Wrong notes where you can say there is no such thing as a wrong note. There is such a thing as Wrong technique. Technique which produces pain and/or fatigue in the fingers is quite simply one hundred percent with out question Wrong.
johnmarkpainter -- 11/17/2006, 22:56:17 -- #31097
Mike, I do get what you are saying....but sometimes you just have to rock :) Can't you just disagree 90% ? I work a lot with this guy: http://homepage.mac.com/johnflem/demos/Ouch.mp3 Yeah...it's a bit silly but very entertaining. He tends to leave a bit of DNA on the piano with the occasional broken Hammer or String. I've seen plenty of world class players break strings, Bows etc when they were simply 'going for it'. Music can (and in my opinion should, but that's just me) be extremely Physical. A great opera singer doesn't sit around and sing their highest notes all day (even with perfect technique).
7 -- 11/18/2006, 10:41:34 -- #31097
Topic: Cracking Knuckles and other joints Best if you don't have to crack 'em, but when they need to be put back where they're supposed to be it has to be done. Some people have looser joints than others. My knuckles (and spine) have to be cracked back into place whenever they move out of place. That is a fact of my life. Chiropractic exists for a reason.
Scot -- 11/18/2006, 16:22:16 -- #31097
Flexibility, stretching, "hand yoga", and that sort of thing, can easily take the place of cracking knuckles. But it can't be done overnight- the urge and need, which are both completely real and also psychologically driven, is something that one should train to get out of. Same with your back, neck, and whatever. Chiropractic exists for a reason and serves a real need, but it's not a need that can't be taken care of via other means, via means that are not actually damaging to your body. Western medicine is ingrained in our heads, but it's not the only road to relief out there. Cracking of the joints is bad for you, there's enough evidence of that to head off any arguments before they start. Sure, they "align" you and make you feel better, but as I mentioned above, it's one out of many different ways. Yes, it's an immediate relief. That's what we like here in the States. It's just my personal opinion of course, but I'd rather find relief in ways that don't damage me as much as they make me feel good.
Mike -- 11/19/2006, 12:05:38 -- #31097
Johnmark I used to play drenched in sweat often because I was so physical, but I still played with proper technique. Great dancers are completely relaxed while dancing yet are very physical. The question is when you jump up in the air do you think (ooo this is gonna be tough I better tighten up every muscle in my body) or do you think "ooo this is a tough one I better make extra sure I am completely relaxed and every muscle in my body is loose" On occasion we may in an excited moment break all the rules and tighten up and hit the keys very hard, break tines, and/or strings and yet sound great at those moments.... But to maintain that because of that that makes it ok is like saying to a Dentist who has said you should brush your teeth every day.... Look my kid missed a day last week and look at him!!! His teeth are great!!!! Therefore that brush everday thing is bunk!!! Foolish logic. It is incorrect.
johnmarkpainter -- 11/19/2006, 20:43:36 -- #31097
<<Great dancers are completely relaxed while dancing yet are very physical.>> They also walk with a limp before they are 30 :) I did permanent damage to my Left wrist from playing STUPID on Bass when I was 18-20. The Pain now forces me to play correctly.
Mike -- 11/20/2006, 04:11:00 -- #31097
well I can not figure out your point then john. You should especially understand then that I can not "Can't you just disagree 90% ?" because to go just %90 leads to the injurys that you suffer from.
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