| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: key, chord or scale? | |
| ronald1 -- 11/22/2006, 03:46:30 -- #31361 | |
| when improvising on a chord sequence, what should you be thinking in terms of - key, chord or scale?? Do you need different approaches for different types of piece?? Also, how did todays approach develop? did people start off improvising differently (in terms of the standard system) than they do today? Thanks | |
| CynBad -- 11/22/2006, 09:15:18 -- #31361 | |
| melody. | |
| ronald1 -- 11/22/2006, 11:24:18 -- #31361 | |
| That wasn't one of the options! I guess I want to know the difference between old fashioned chord-based systems and a more modal way of thinking. What are the advantages of different approaches? P.s. I take the point about melody CynBad, but I havent got a good enough ear to abandon thinking in terms of chord structure (yet!) Thanks Again | |
| jwv76 -- 11/22/2006, 11:54:59 -- #31361 | |
| I suppose my thinking is more horizontal than vertical, I typically think more about scales than chords, but really it's a chicken and the egg scenario. Chords are built from scales and scales are built from chords. Take a scale, say C major, play the first note of the scale, skip one note and play the next note, skip a note and play the next, until you have all the notes in the scale stacked up in thirds. The first thing you might notice is that the 11th sounds a little off, because it clashes with the third a minor 9th below it. Theres three things you can do about that, you can leave the third out of the chord, you can leave the 11 out of the chord, or you can alter the 11 by raising it a half step. Now you have a very full sounding chord, which is really just a scale with all the notes being played at once but stacked in thirds, except for a minor alteration to avoid a min9 clash. Depending on how you treat the 11 you could call this chord Cmaj13sus11 (with the 11th, no third), Cmaj13 (with the third, no 11th), or Cmaj13+11 (11th altered to avoid min9) | |
| DrJazz -- 11/23/2006, 15:50:53 -- #31361 | |
| Hi Ronald, I think it's important to explore as many approaches as possible to improvising over the chords of a given tune. Over a II - V - I for instance you could play the notes of each chord (arpeggios) as they occur, varying the order of notes - a highly vertical approach. You could also play around with a scale for each chord, possibly choosing an altered or diminished scale for the V chord (instead of the more obvious Mixolydian). Thirdly, you could indeed play 'in the key' (horizontally) by using just one scale over all three chords - either the major scale of the I chord, or a major pentatonic scale. Over a minor II - V - I a minor pentatonic or blues scale can be used, also based on I. The great improvisers draw on these varied styles of playing to create contrast in and give direction to their solos. | |
| Jazz+ -- 11/23/2006, 22:01:49 -- #31361 | |
| I think all three at once: key, chord, and scale. I feature each and I also weave them all together. Why would an improvisor exclude any of the three obvious associations? | |
| bow -- 11/28/2006, 08:23:26 -- #31361 | |
| I'm beginning to appreciate the enormous gift that ljp is i've tried for a long time to be a good improvisor and it took a little advice from a Jamey Aebersold handout online to get me to succeed after trying my improvising act along the melody of a song and that made the best sense. However the i find Dr. Jazz's advice very interesting as it would make a person work more along the lines of musical ideas and bring out deeper things from within him or her. | |
| anacephalic -- 11/28/2006, 15:22:03 -- #31361 | |
| I'm siding with Dr Jazz as well, use a combination of key, scale, and chord. I have always depended heavily on dorian and minor pent within the applicable key as the basis for my improv but the last few years i've been using chord voicings as a template for note selection to get more variety in what i'm playing and to better anchor my solos to the tune. Basically i'm accessing modes from the back door because i often find it easier to remember chord voicings better than what scale/mode i'm searching for on the fly. since i started doing that my improv has a lot more continuity. Using different voicings as a template for note selection also tends to lead my lines in different directions than they would take on a purely scale based approach since each voicings give emphasis to different colors that act as rut busters. | |
| Brotherdavies -- 11/30/2006, 05:08:01 -- #31361 | |
| I believe I am doing it the Dr Jazz way. What is holding me back is that I can not do it equally well for all chords/scales/keys. My knowledge is patchy but I am really working on it. Sometimes I think dominant 7th chord and then alter a few notes - still thinking chord. Other times I will play diminished scale fragments - thinking scale. Sometimes I play blues licks that cut through the harmony. The greatest thing of all though is when a melodic idea pops into my head and it is transmitted to my fingers with no consious thought of scale, key or chord. Bro' | |
| Whacky -- 11/30/2006, 06:27:35 -- #31361 | |
| "The greatest thing of all though is when a melodic idea pops into my head and it is transmitted to my fingers with no consious thought of scale, key or chord.' Yes sir - to me that is the ultimate goal - you are on the right track :) | |
| pphilip -- 11/30/2006, 06:57:31 -- #31361 | |
| That's it Brotherdavies... Did you happen to see Jerry Lee on the Today show. He sounded great in spite of the arthritis that was in his hands. He still got off some tasty runs. | |
| ronald1 -- 11/30/2006, 09:52:48 -- #31361 | |
| thanks for the advice guys.. this problem has been bugging me for some time cos I kinda assumed there must be a "correct approach" to improvising on a chord sequence, but now I feel more relaxed about what I was doing neway. Cheers! | |
| Brotherdavies -- 12/04/2006, 06:56:50 -- #31361 | |
| pphilip I did not see Jerry Lee on the today show - I believe the clip can be downloaded. However, I did watch a DVD of Jerry playing in LA and Paris in 1981 on Sat. Amazing, unique and inspired playing from one of the Killers pianistic peaks! I am Jerry Lee Lewis trained and I am now turning jazz - what a combination! Bro' | |
| jaledin -- 12/04/2006, 13:25:26 -- #31361 | |
| Don't miss his new album, "Last Man Standing." It's extraordinary in it's own, unique way. | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/21/2007, 10:37:15 -- #31361 | |
| If I had to choose only one, it would be chord, then scale. | |
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