LearnJazzPiano.com archives: OP: Be-Bop He-Not?

Brotherdavies -- 11/24/2006, 03:38:48 -- #31408

As I work my way through a 'study' the Jazz Piano Greats I am trying to figure out if Oscar Peterson's piano style is: Pre-bop, Be-bop, Post-bop, blues, swing or everything combined! His playing on Night Train and We Get Requests (2 classic albums) sounds like Swinging Blues. He doesn't sound like Bud but he played with Bird. So OP: is he Be-Bop or is He-Not? Bro'

7 -- 11/24/2006, 11:52:40 -- #31408

Ever since the parable of Adam and Eve the human mind has been driven to put a name on everything for tidy categorization. Once we have "defined" it and pushed its neatly into its little cubbyhole, we feel a sense of satisfaction have the illusion that there is order and logic in our otherwise chaotic lives. Where are you going with this Bro???

Brotherdavies -- 11/25/2006, 02:52:11 -- #31408

I leave order and logic in my work place. What I should have said is: Why do people call Bud Powell Be-Bop when his playing seems as varied and amazing as say Oscar Peterson / Errol Garner ? I actually hate to categorize - it does not help me to learn jazz, it hinders the learning process. Bro'

charlp88 -- 11/25/2006, 05:26:12 -- #31408

dear bro dave,  I think Bud Powell was instrumental in developing the Be-Bop sounds as he was one of the first musicians to incorporate it into his musical vocabulary along with BIRD DIZ and some others i cant recall right now, But his Playing transcends categorization and he is today recognized as one of the Jazz Masters

hepcatmonk -- 11/25/2006, 10:53:49 -- #31408

I'd say OP runs almost parallel to bebop. Or perpendicular. Or something. His lines have some bebop material in it, but it's usually not; mostly melodic and blues scale based. The reason Bud Powell is a bebop player doesn't really have to do with technique, speed or anything else. His lines were primarily 8th note based, and used chromatic passing tones to keep the chord tones on downbeats. He didn't blanket a bunch of changes with the blues scale, or any one scale like OP or Errol Garner's diatonic lines...he negotiated every change. I agree, some of Garner's and Peterson's lines sound bebop based...and they may use bebop scales, etc...but the majority of what they play doesn't fall under the bebop language. that's why OP's so hard to categorize, along with a lot of other guys hm

Styles -- 11/25/2006, 16:11:50 -- #31408

OP is definately a culmination of alot of influences

Scot -- 11/26/2006, 08:06:45 -- #31408

The main difference I hear in OP and Powell, as far as the lines the play, is that Powell lines are a lot more like horn lines. Powell took Bird's stuff and used it on the piano, and maybe vice versa. OP plays the piano like a piano. The notes he uses are more gospel/blues in nature, but that's not what really sets them apart.  OP can play bebop the way you hear people like Powell playing it, just check out the Dizzy/Peterson duo recording. Oscar is very good at accenting.  If you listen to his lines, the super fast ones, he accents the important notes.  That's what gives his line a bebop feel- even though he's playing straight 8ths or 16ths or whatever, he throws in all these heavy accents that are on up beats, down beats, anywhere.  Without that rhythmic thing going on, Oscar's playing would be just like anyone else who can play super fast. Luckily, he figured it out at some point in time.

BlackWhiteKey -- 11/26/2006, 09:15:59 -- #31408

actually i put op under the "greatness" category along with bill evans.

Mike -- 11/27/2006, 17:29:22 -- #31408

its just that when people started useing the word Be-bop they were using it to in conversations about Bud Powell...  Conversations about Bud Powell,  Max Roach, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker and some of the other Inventors of the music that ended up with that name.  Oscar Peterson not taking any of the greatness from him that is due was not part of that small and basically definable group that invented that type of music that came to be called "Be bop.   Bud Powell clearly was.

jaledin -- 11/27/2006, 18:49:01 -- #31408

Nicely said, Mike.

tune -- 11/28/2006, 09:11:56 -- #31408

Maybe Oscar was based more in Canada around that time for the jazz historians to take notice.

Scot -- 11/28/2006, 10:19:44 -- #31408

Powell was a bop player, but I don't think he's part of the group that invented the stylisms that define bebop- the specialized accents and altered notes.  Powell basically copied what Bird was doing, Bird even complained about it, saying that Powell was stealing all his licks. Not to take anything away from Powell as he was a great player and any pianist would learn a lot from listening to him.  However, any pianist can learn just as much about what makes bop what it is from listening to Bird lines as well. Later in his life, Powell started playing with more of his own voice, but it was still built on the foundations that Bird, Gillespie, and the other horn players who created bop poured down.

jaledin -- 11/28/2006, 14:57:08 -- #31408

You know, Scot, that's sort of the standard rap -- and probably quite a bit of truth in it if it were anybody *but* Bud on piano -- but I'm not so sure Bud Powell didn't come up with a great many things out of whole cloth (and from Tatum -- extracting all of those voicings and voice-leading principles and substitutions from Art Tatum's playing and putting them in a [sometimes] different context was probably one of Bud Powell's greatest achievements).   At least if you were to ask Bud Powell ca. 1952 who "owned" the bop franchise, you know what the answer (from Bud) would probably be!  But seriously, those lines he carved out, and the speed and rhythm -- it's like a different universe, even if the original concept may have come from elsewhere.  Virgil had to come from Homer -- but sometimes the brilliance of the execution overcomes the burden of influence from past conceits, no?

hepcatmonk -- 11/29/2006, 20:37:14 -- #31408

well said jaledin and mike. I agree completely. The harmonic stuff that Bud Powell was doing is very important. He took a lot from Tatum...if you listen to the famous Powell recording of 'It Could Happen to You' this influence is quite apparent. Powell also explored some pretty adventurous harmonies. I mean, listen to Glass Enclosure; it's pretty out! There's bitonals, etc. I'd also say that Bud Powell's compositions are also extremely important and underrated. So many of the licks that most players play come from Powell compositions, from the heads of tunes like Celia and Wail. Although Bud did take a lot from Bird and Diz, he definitely came up with his own style. It is definitely different than Bird's style. Although they both play in the bebop idiom, they have very different vocabularies. If you listen to Cherokee, sure, you can hear many pilfered Parker licks on the bridge. But Bud Powell came up with a lot of his own stuff NOT common to Bird that a lot of people play. For example, that lick on the Ab- chord Dance of the Infidels...I heard Jaleel Shaw play that lick 14 times one night. haha, of course I'm exaggerating, but a lot of his licks have become imitated, even by non-pianists. I really think even as good as Bud Powell is, he is underrated by pianists today. What he did was completely revolutionary and ground breaking. Listen to things like I Want to Be Happy, and All God's Chillun Got Rhythm...these things are considered absolutely astounding, even today. The speed, the invention, the lyricism, and soulfullness of the lines...it's amazing. Bud Powell changed the piano forever...Wynton Kelly, Herbie Hancock, and Chick Corea (especially Chick) and their styles of playing draw directly from the innovations Bud Powell brought to the piano.

Brotherdavies -- 11/30/2006, 04:56:17 -- #31408

As someone who has only just discovered Bud, I have found that his approach to reharmonising Standards, his flowing lines with chromatic passing notes and the overall feel of his playing is right where I am with my understanding of Jazz piano. I rushed into Bill Evans and McCoy Tyner after lots of OP, Nat and Teddy Wilson. The reharmonisation that the post-bop guys do and the more complex (?) approach to playing standards seems lightyears away from the swing piano style. Listening to Bud has enabled me to take a more incremental route to learning jazz. I am doing lots of tri-tone chord substitution and the extent of substitution that Bud and Bird were doing seems to be where I am at. I'll stick with Bud for a while yet and then Evans and Tyner! Some great discussion guys - it is really helping me to Learn Jazz Piano. Bro'

teej1169 -- 11/30/2006, 12:54:08 -- #31408

Its great to hear Chick Corea talk about Bud Powell.  He says he used to transcribe his music and play along with it by having two speakers directly behind his piano.  Chick found himself having to move his body in odd positions to get the right articulation.  I thought this was a bit weird considering every video of Bud i've seen seems effortless.  :-p If you guys have the chance you need to pick up Len Lyon's book "The Great Jazz Pianists".  Its a series of interview with all the big names from stride to free jazz.  There is an extensive interview with OP in it.

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