LearnJazzPiano.com archives:

DoubleZ -- 12/21/2006, 12:04:11 -- #31841

Well, first and foremost, don't get frustrated when you can't be heard!  Esepcially if you're not mic'd, a lot of the times it will be hard to comp and play because you can't really hear yourself.  Make sure you know your role as a pianist, and don't overdo your comps- you have a whole rhythm section providing the foundation for the band, so make your comps useful and creative.  But overall, I absolutely like playing solo or in a small combo than in a big band.  Have fun with it!

Jazz+ -- 12/21/2006, 12:33:00 -- #31841

"For instance, when playing a piece in which a different chord is written on each and every beat, it shouldn't be necessary to play each chord (as the guitar player does). This would make my comping too heavy, I'm sure. What, then, will be a good approach? How do I choose between playing the chord on the first beat, or the one on the second beat? " That's right, you needn't play al the chords. Take your pick. Typically the chord on beat 1 is more important than the passing chords on beat 2 or 4. And yes it will be hard to be heard so don't pound your wrists sore.  Playing piano in a big band is a very back seat role. You rarely are even needed except for those little Count Basie like fills. And you should talk to the guitar player about taking turns comping behind the solos. It's terrible if you have a guitar and piano comping in a way that doesn't compliment each other. Some guitarists and piuanists blend well togtehrer and other do not. Even great players have that problem. So if you have to comp at the same time play your comping very sparsely, something like only on beat one and maybe occasionaly on beat four or the and of three.

albetan -- 12/23/2006, 09:39:30 -- #31841

If you are alone in rhythmic background with bass and drums, you must play rhythmic chords. If ther's a guitar player don't do the same job as him... let him the rhythmic chords and you may do a harmonic background with long voicings in whole notes with left, and playing one or two melodic notes with right as a melodic background. Be creative and you will enjoy your job.

Jazz+ -- 12/23/2006, 15:53:47 -- #31841

Yes, but often times if the horns are playing their written parts you don't have to be rhythmic, you won't be heard and you might sound like interference , so you can lay down pad style chords. Plus the drums is doing lots of rhythm.

eme -- 02/05/2007, 12:05:27 -- #31841

Hi, couldn't find this old topic of mine but just wanted you to know that there is cool new sheet music available from all kind of jazz musicians. There some pianoplayers as well, like Camélia Ben Naceur, Harmen Fraanje, Kenny Wheeler, Rembrandt Frerichs, Tilmas Junius and more. Other cool stuff like Mark Turner, Kurt Rosenwinkel as well. You are free to download or post some of yours: http://www.jazzenzo.nl/pivot/archive.php?c=Scores&w=&t= Enjoy,

Scot -- 02/05/2007, 18:29:42 -- #31841

Here's what I think about when playing with a big band which I do a lot of: I hardly ever play when theres some kind of soli going on.  That's for the section (saxes, trumpets, whatever) to shine. I keep fills to a minimum. The fills I do play should be very deliberate and extraordinarily tasty.  Think Count Basie. When it's time to blow, blow them away.  It's a big band, not a cocktail music trio.  When you have a solo that lasts for a while and can get big, take it big, rumble things. The most important question off all is, is your playing making the big band sound better?  That's really all you have to think about. Be musical, help the band sound good.  Record your rehearsals and listen to your playing.  You know what it should sound like, if it doesn't think about ways of changing your playing so it sounds the way you want. That's why recording yourself is so important. you can't make these decisions when you're playing because there is too much other stuff going on, you need to listen to yourself afterwards to see how you fit into the big picture of the music.

MoJazz -- 02/06/2007, 03:37:32 -- #31841

Usually in the rhythm section the bass and guitar will cover the root and triads pretty well. So, as not to muddy up the comping play the upper structures with the rh and lh can punctuate an open 5th and /or the bass root for color. But, trying to find a nice balance with a guitarist can be a real PIA. It's nice to have a Freddie Green type player comping, but usually it's the Joe Pass types that really make it hard to comp. Bill Cunliffe (Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra) had a workshop where he explained how he comps with the Jazz Orchestra. He likes to play octaves in the rh and rootless voicings in the lh, to punctuate a high energy shout chorus and for slower tunes use upper structures like I described. And, many charts have a shite-load of changes on every beat so if the band leader wants you to play on every beat then just use the rh. BTW, several composers/arrangers will have charts with a lot of written notation which you have to play, including chord voicings. Bob Mintzer charts are a good example. So, there's required skill in sight-reading at an advanced level sometimes. You might have to play Nestico's 88 Basie Street in which the pianist plays a long notated solo! However, the MOST important thing is not lose your place and get lost. Gotta count!

Jazz+ -- 03/23/2007, 10:05:36 -- #31841

Any more thoughts on this subject from anybody else here?

Jazz+ -- 03/23/2007, 10:21:10 -- #31841

I'm tutoring a high school kid that's playing in his school jazz ensemble for the frst time. I would like to get your suggestions on what is important to know for a beginner, especially with regards to comping and a system for chord voicings. My idea is to show him the left hand four note rootless voicings (Bill Evans type) and then add the right hand above playing one note, two notes or an octave. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_band#Piano.2FKeyboards Piano The role of the pianist in a big band depends on his/her style and the needs of the band. The pianist can punctuate various accents, provide responses in a call-and-response, play countermelodies, provide fills in the music, etc. Historically, each big band pianist/bandleader had a trademark style. In some groups, the part played by the piano was minimal, in that the comping only contributed a light specification of the voicings of the chords. In contrast, other bandleaders gave the piano a more prominent role. Modern groups generally play a wide variety of styles and arrangements, with varying usage of the piano. Guitar The guitar in a big band is mostly used as a pure rhythm instrument in that it plays straight time. That is, in a swing tune, the guitarist will often play four beats in every bar.[4] Other styles (ballad, Latin) may be approached differently. The guitarist sometimes takes solos, but usually not as many as the piano. The guitarist most responsible for creating the role of the traditional big band guitarist was Freddie Green of the Count Basie orchestra, who played an unamplified acoustic guitar. Sometimes distortion pedals are used to create various effects. Form Typical big band arrangements of the swing period are written in strophic form with the same phrase and chord structure repeated several times. Each iteration, or chorus, most commonly follows Twelve bar blues form or Thirty-two-bar (AABA) song form. The first chorus of an arrangement typically introduces the melody, and is followed by subsequent choruses of development. This development may take the form of improvised solos, written soli sections, and shout choruses. An arrangement's first chorus is sometimes preceded by an introduction, which may be as short as a few measures or may extend to chorus of its own. Many arrangements contain an interlude, often similar in content to the introduction, inserted between some or all choruses. Other methods of embellishing the form include modulations and cadential extensions. In terms of "where Swing really came from", in the 1920s, most bands used "stock" arrangements provided by the song publishers. The earliest arrangers put reed sections and horn sections together to create the kind of "call-and-response" formatting that can be traced back to rural Black Church singing. (Another influence is the jam or "head" arrangement of the later 1920s, which was taking a basic stock arrangement and adding some on-the-spot improvising.)

Jazz+ -- 03/24/2007, 12:22:17 -- #31841

Does anybody have anymore tips? Thanks

sid -- 03/24/2007, 15:36:00 -- #31841

If my experience is anything to go by, just because you can hold your own in a trio or small group rhythm section, it doesn't mean you'll be able to cut the mustard in a big band.  I've tried it and it's torture.  So my tip is - if you find it's not working for you, stop doing it and do what you are good at instead - and don't beat yourself up for not being the fully-rounded jazz pianist. sid

Jazz+ -- 03/24/2007, 20:11:06 -- #31841

Hmm, I've always found the back seat role of the piano in a big band far easier than the highly exposed role of playing in a trio.

7 -- 03/24/2007, 23:22:20 -- #31841

The trick is to reinforce horn hits, keep a groove and otherwise complement unobtrusively - yet supportively. As far as voicings and fills are concerned. If the chart is a written one then chances are the fills will already be taken up by one or more of the horns. Yet a high register tinkle often can add sparkle at the end of a phrase. That's a question of taste. I would think that if the band is playing swing then the voicings should also be those used in the era. Shells like low midrange "1 b7"'s were more common and usually replaced the "stride oompah" since there was a bassist to take over the low down beats. Evans rootless chords hadn't really been invented yet, so while their effect is certainly (in most cases) hipper, in a historical sense they are less authentic to the genre. As regards the RH, the two hands most often comp in rhyhtmic unison. So it's coolest to play two or three note RH chords with things like 9s and 6s in there plus some lower chord tone. I'm confused though. If this is a big band, isn't there a "book" and isn't there a piano part in that book? If the comping requires a special rhythmic figure for the pianist to play, it is usually clearly written out (even if the chart only has the chords). If (for some odd reason) that isn't the case, then the pianist must both read the chords and keep an eye on the horn section (or conductor) for any indications of special rhythmic figures. After a rehearsal or two, once you've become comfortable with the tunes, the execution will tend to follow simple logic.

Kai -- 03/25/2007, 01:49:36 -- #31841

I have the (rare in my city) opportunity to listen to a big band on 3rd April. I live in NW England and the band members gather occasionally and travel good distances to play for, allegedly, peanuts. They are all pros, mostly older men and, one or two at most, women). They don't rehearse, play whichever tune number is shouted out immediately before each number, and seem to be so sympathetic to the total sound and mesh beautifully. They play solos when nodded to on the fly.  I suppose, since they play mostly popular standards, they know exactly what is expected of them in terms of interpreting the lead sheets. The leader only conducts at the ending of most numbers and the odd occasion.   It is always such a pleasure to hear and watch them.   I intend to watch and listen more acutely now. Listen, with the advice of you contributors to this thread, especially Scot, MoJazz and 7, Albetan and Jazz+ etc.  Thanks.

tune -- 03/27/2007, 09:35:02 -- #31841

I had a recent first experience with an 18 piece band. The piano chair was open (how long I don't know, just was told he can't make reherals). I rehersed and they only went over 3 numbers. I was asked if I wanted to play with them at a jazz fest in 5 days. I said ok. I basically was handed a book of charts 5 inches thick. I didnt get a set list until the day before the job. So I had to evaluate what was hard, easy and make some notes for myself as it's been a while since I was sightreading charts like these. Turns out there was one fast Rhumba that had the piano exposed a lot, especially for a 6 bar writin solo in octaves ala Oscar. The director basically just talked threw the songs briefly before going on. I did mention to him that solo and said if the tempo is too fast I'm just gonna improvise over it, and he said thats fine. Well, that tune was so fast I knew no way could I sight read it. It improvised and it went fine. The other songs were ok to deal with and the guy shook my hand and said good job. The thing I know that I need to work on after this is rythmic patterns. Those are the easiest places to your timing. I don't know if I'm part of the band but I was invited to the next rehersal. So, so far it's a good thing. By the way, I had to go over that part and I wrote in fingering for it. A Don Ellis chart called 'Open Wide'. Hmm...don't go there.

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