Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: Earliest be-bop?

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Earliest be-bop?
AndyD -- 01/02/2007, 08:32:38 -- #32089
Over Christmas I was educating myself reading the music book 'The Right Hand According to Tatum'. The final point it discusses is a part of his after hours 1941 recording of Sweet Georgia Brown (with trumpeter Frank Newton and bassist Ebenezer Paul) on the CD 'God is in the House'. The second chorus has the first 16 bars with Ebenezer Paul playing a bass line against Tatum who uses only his right hand, long rests, and 'outside' phrases, described in the book as somewhere between be-bop and Lenni Tristano's playing. Nothing like Tatum's usual commercial style that is probably 99% of the existing recordings. The story of Charlie Parker learning from Tatum's playing in 1938 is well known. So I was wondering: What is the earliest be-bop recording? Without starting a shouting debate, is it possible that Tatum (or someone even earlier like Armstrong) really invented be-bop rather than Dizzy, Bird or Monk who came to the fore after 1944? I was thinking that Tatum may not have developed it because it was not suitable as a solo piano form like stride or swing? I've been surfing around but(to put it politely) there's a lot of incomplete jazz writings about. Regards Andy PS. I'd like to add that though the music may be a bit dated to some tastes, the Sweet Georgia Brown track is one of the greatest group improvisations I've ever heard. It's seven minutes of pure enjoyment and when Tatum plays those 16 bars of be-bop, someone says "Ahhh get outa here".
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 10:30:31 -- #32089
History at least says Bebop was started by Dizzy, Parker and Clarke (drummer). Monk developing a related area but not sounding the same. But bebop has many related elements that make it stick out. One of the critical pieces is the combo sound, so although bebop itself may take from prior music, to be characterstic of the bebop sound requires the elements of the rhythm section and the soloist, the form, the stream of eight notes (not 16ths from Tatum), the swing, the outlining of the chords of the rhythm section, the fast pace (not ballad). So given this, anyone playing solo piano would not sound like Bebop.
jaledin -- 01/02/2007, 12:49:29 -- #32089
What about a bebop pianist playing solo? It's been known to happen, you know... ;) I heard that Bud Powell cut some classic sides just solo -- uptempo numbers, too -- but I might be misremembering (joking smiley or whatever). I'm not familiar with that Georgia Brown performance of Tatum, but in general there's not a lot of difference between what a lot of Tatum plays and something like Sonny Clark's version of "Deep In A Dream" (which I just transcribed yesterday since it was a tune I wanted to learn). Or any Bud Powell rubato ballad. I think the harmonic concept comes all from Tatum -- there just isn't anyone else who can lay credit on that.
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 12:55:54 -- #32089
Hey Jaledin! Of course we're just engaging in sorta' useless debate here but just for fun. A bebop pianist playing solo to me is playing solo, not playing bebop. A bebop pianist can play classical too right? ;-) Bebop is so amorphous a term. I've been trying to get an idea of how to describe "Hard Bob" vs. "Post Bob", and I see all these one sentence descriptors. I don't know if I'd know what Hard Bop exactly sounds like. But at least Bebop gives me this vivid imagery of streaming eight notes at fast tempo. Is that all inclusive? I don't know but what I've read is that Bebop is a title given to the music after the fact (fast jazz that you can't dance to ;-) ). I suppose if Bud Powell emulated a trio sound just by itself, you could still call it Bebop, but he would be emulating that distinct combo sound wouldn't he?
AndyD -- 01/02/2007, 13:46:30 -- #32089
I didn't express that sentence well did I...perhaps better put by me as: "I was thinking that Tatum may not have developed his bebop ideas because he thought them less suitable to him as primarily a solo pianist(especially considering his phenomemal left hand) or simply preferred stride or swing?" Anyway I'm at home now, with the Riccardo Scivales - Right hand of Tatum book in front of me to quote it accurately. The point it makes about that second chorus is that Tatum was recorded playing these "imaginative, advanced and experimental things during the 'after hours' sessions he loved so much" in 1941. "Considering that this recording was made in 1941, the overall result is definitely astounding, halfway between bebop and Lenni Tristano's works such as 'Line Up' and 'East Thirty-Second" "Tatum seems indeed to have anticipated some aspects of later jazz styles...". Hence I was asking about the earliest known bebop recordings. I'll see if I can do something about letting you hear the extract. Regards Andy
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 14:08:51 -- #32089
"Tatum seems indeed to have anticipated some aspects of later jazz styles...". I'm sure this is true. But this could also be a misstatement. Dizzy and Parker were able to listen to Tatum on 52nd street while they were still developing their styles. They could have been influenced by Tatum very easily although this may not be so obvious because they're playing horns. But under the definition of Bebop (being a backwardly determined label), historically speaking, Bebop can only be attributed to Dizzy and Parker as the first originators. So they would have the very first recordings with this particular official label. Now if you're talking about similarities in lines and forms, I think Dizzy and Parker acknowledges the source as all the jazz that has come before them. Many bebop licks are pulled from Duke Ellington, etc. (just sped up). The form goes beyond the licks though as bebop itself is characterized by mostly playing over the changes and not necessarily about memorable licks. In fact the licks are not meant to be memorable per se in this format.
jaledin -- 01/02/2007, 15:06:47 -- #32089
Oh, I know, jazzwee -- I'm just kidding around as well. Maybe you're right, after all, but I wouldn't know what else to call those solo Bud sides ("The Fruit"? That was a solo, I think) or the Sonny Clark solo sides but bebop. I couldn't imagine a world where Monk couldn't or didn't play solo piano. I think you're probably right, on second thought -- the "solo" sides are supposed to emulate a trio sound. I liked your last post, but keep some room for Bud in there -- he did things Parker could only dream about, even if he didn't do it first (and I'm not sure about that).
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 15:21:56 -- #32089
"but keep some room for Bud in there -- he did things Parker could only dream about, even if he didn't do it first (and I'm not sure about that)." Tell us more about that Jaledin. Of course anything related to voicings would not come out of Parker since his instrument is monophonic. I'm not as knowledgeable of Bud Powell. I know he started the style of making the piano sound like a horn. When I practice 1/7 voicings I know that's from him.
AndyD -- 01/02/2007, 15:26:50 -- #32089
Thanks for the comments so far... and here you go: http://www.savefile.com/files/384126 I don't know how to reduce (or cut) the file and you'd lose quality anyway; on my 2meg broadband it said it would take about 25 minutes to download the 6.8meg file(though from my limited experience of savefile.com this download time could vary dramatically depending on the time of day). Let me know what you think of Scivales comments on those 16 bars in the second chorus. I'll leave the link up for a couple of days. Regards Andy
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 16:12:23 -- #32089
Andy, I had a hell of a time trying to figure out what an .M4A file is. But now know that you need Itunes to play this. It does sound like Bebop minus the drums and the bass solo. But this was done in the 1940's. When was this specific recording done? This could be happening at the same time as Dizzy and Parker. What is interesting is that all these guys were playing in NYC 52nd street around the same time so I wonder who was influencing who?
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 16:16:40 -- #32089
Andy, I had a hell of a time trying to figure out what an .M4A file is. But now know that you need Itunes to play this. It does sound like Bebop minus the drums and the bass solo. But this was done in the 1940's. When was this specific recording done? This could be happening at the same time as Dizzy and Parker. What is interesting is that all these guys were playing in NYC 52nd street around the same time so I wonder who was influencing who?
7 -- 01/02/2007, 21:15:48 -- #32089
Jelly Roll Morton always claimed to be the inventor of Jazz, Stride and Swing. Jelly also posthumously invented Bebop. At your next seance, just ask him. He'll be happy to set the record straight. :)
AndyD -- 01/02/2007, 23:28:35 -- #32089
From the CD liner notes... it was recorded September 16th 1941 at Clark Monroe's Uptown House (located at 198W.34th St.) a spot that rivaled Minton's in attracting major-league jazzmen for after-hours jamming.. Just found it as a sample on amazon.com so makes it easy for all to hear! http://www.amazon.com/God-House-Art-Tatum/dp/B000009DHG/sr=8-2/qid=1167808588/ref=sr_1_2/002-8745907-4453648?ie=UTF8&s=music Scroll down to sample 13, from about 42 seconds to the end of the one minute sample is the actual bit we're talking about. Point made 7. 'Nothing comes from nothing'. Andy
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 23:43:07 -- #32089
By 1941, that's really close to the time of Dizzy now so perhaps we see that the music of that time period weren't that far apart. Maybe the only difference is that Tatum never marketed himself as a combo. In fact that bebop sounding piece had no drums so that could be part of the evolution. Morton appears to be still around right before that period too. So who knows? ;-) Bebop itself is a historical and marketing label so if Dizzy and Parker used the term first, I guess they get first dibs on the title. Interesting how there's a lot of gray area in the music itself.
jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 23:45:46 -- #32089
This is the missing element that defines Bebop. So it may have come even before: ----------------- A scientific expedition disembarks from its plane at the final outpost of civilization in the deepest Amazon rain forest. They immediately notice the ceaseless thrumming of native drums. As they venture further into the bush, the drums never stop, day or night, for weeks. The lead scientist asks one of the natives about this, and the native's only reply is "Drums good. Drums never stop. Very BAD if drums stop." The drumming continues, night and day, until one night, six weeks into the trip, when the jungle is suddenly silent. Immediately the natives run screaming from their huts, covering their ears. The scientists grab one boy and demand "What is it? The drums have stopped!" The terror-stricken youth replies "Yes! Drums stop! VERY BAD!" The scientists ask "Why? Why? What will happen?" Wild-eyed, the boy responds, " . . . BASS SOLO!!!" ----------- :-)
jwv76 -- 01/03/2007, 00:43:29 -- #32089
Guitarist Charlie Christian's playing style is considered to have been a direct predeccesor to Bebop. There are recordings of him dating to 1939 that have a very boppish sound, his phrasing alternates between flowing eighth-note runs and angular, jagged lines that were to become central to the style of jazz later called Bebop. Charlie Parker's earliest recording was in 1945. Christian was also one of the first jazz guitarists to play an electric. He died at a very young age, 25. OK, here's a bass player joke: A marrried couple go to see a marriage counselor, it seems they haven't spoken to each other in years. The counselor suggests that the two of them go spend an evening at a jazz club as a way to reconnect and spend some time together. Both the man and his wife are sceptical about the idea, but they reluctantly agree to go along with it. That night they arrive at the club and are given a table, all the while never one saying a word to the other. They each order a drink, the drinks arrive, and still they sit there not speaking. Eventually the band starts up the first song of their set. The horn player plays through the head of the tune, then takes a lengthy solo. The man and the woman still sit at there table not speaking to each other. Then the piano player takes a solo. The couple haven't so much as looked at each other since they sat down. Next the drummer takes a solo, and still they sit there in silence. After the drummer, the bass player takes his solo. And miracle of miracles, the husband and wife start talking to each other! ;)
SolArt -- 01/03/2007, 07:02:39 -- #32089
?
Whacky -- 01/03/2007, 07:30:41 -- #32089
For what it's worth, the free Real Player will play mp4s too
Whacky -- 01/03/2007, 07:32:31 -- #32089
whoops I meant m4a
hepcatmonk -- 01/03/2007, 12:17:11 -- #32089
jazzwee - i don't think I agree with your classification as solo piano being something differentiated from bebop; to quote your example, a bebop player playing classical would be playing "solo piano" too. Bebop is more a style or genre than anything else; playing "solo piano" or in a group setting is more of an instrumentation or performance practice format issue, even though it does change how we approach the music. About Tatum and bebop: Charlie Parker and ESPECIALLY Dizzy Gillespie were heavily influenced by Art Tatum's use of substitution. The canonical example is Dizzy Gillespie's recording of I Can't Get Started which he harmonizes like this: C Am \| Dm G7 \| Bm E7 Bbm Eb7 \| Am7 D7 Abm Db7 \| C etc.... the use of descending ii-Vs by chromaticism is a very Tatum-esque device that works great here. Also, Charlie Parker's use of chromatic harmonies like playing this on a rhythm changes: Bb \| C- F7 \| Dm Dbm \| Cm F7 etc.... (omnibook, pg 23, line 10) or this in a ii-V-I: Dm G7 \| Fm Bb7 \| C (look in your omnibook at page 72, line 6) is definitely Tatum influenced...he would often use minor third substitutions as well. The bebop language, as it defines the style, is characterized mostly by the use of scales that involve chromatic passing tones that result in the chord tones falling on the downbeats. You can hear Lester Young reaching at this idea on his classic solo on the rhythm changes tune Lester Leaps In in 1939 is where the seed for this idea is planted. You hear Lester Young starting all these major scale lines on the offbeats just to cause them to resolve "correctly" (with a chord tone on the downbeat). There were flirtations with chromaticism to make it sound right, but it wasn't structured until Charlie Parker developed his own system for playing. This is what bebop is. If you now open your hymnal to page 2 first line: You will see that into the first scale, F mixolydian, he inserts a passing tone between D and C (Db in the 4th eigth note) to cause the F D and C and A to all fall on the beat (the D C and A are all chord tones of FM6). On page 12, first line, descending Bb Mixolydian scale for the Bb7 chord, but notice how there's an A natural placed between Bb and Ab, which causes F D Bb and Ab to all fall on the strong beats. The chord tones are on the downbeats thanks to chromatic tones, and that's what characterizes what was new about the bebop style. Then there's enclosing notes through chromaticism (page 15, first line) in the measure of F7, the C chord tone is preceded by both D and B natural. In the next measure (F- Bb7), the chord tone Ab is preceded by Bb and G. Thousands more examples of this exist in the omnibook, I'm just glossing over them right now to illustrate some points about the bebop language. Back to Tatum, one more thing that I think influenced early bebop players was his use of the circle of fifths/fourths. Commonly Tatum will play a passage that's a flurry of lines going through a lot of the circle of fifths/fourths, especially at the ends of ballads: hitting a lot of fast chords like C#7 F#7 B7 E7 A7 D7 G7 C7 F7 Bb7 before hitting a final Ebmajor7 chord at the end of a ballad. It's a really common bebop technique to do this also on Blues tunes and Rhythm Changes. For a Blues in F or a Rhythm Changes in Bb the first four bars become: F#7 B7 \| E7 A7 \| D7 G7 \| C7 F7 \| Bb7 .... etc .... This is probably also evidence of some Tatum influence on the harmonic conception of early bebop players. My contention is, Art Tatum had a huge influence on the harmonic conception of Charlie Parker, but the elements that define bebop (chromatic passing tones, encirclement, deflection, etc) were developed from something else: an outgrowth and great development on the lines of Lester Young. That is something I would say Bird and Diz own completely. hm
jazzwee -- 01/03/2007, 12:54:27 -- #32089
Nice lecture hepcatmonk! Truly the Bebop style, as I understand it, is chord tones on the downbeat and related to that is playing over the changes. (like the Bebop scale). But as a specific style, does your description define it separately from hard bop, post bob? There are characterstics of the original bebop that does stick out as it was marketed in the '40s. Nowadays, don't we tend to lump Bebop into the big category of Straight ahead jazz, without breaking out the categories (as separated from Fusion, Smooth, Free etc.)? What's your take on this?
hepcatmonk -- 01/04/2007, 12:05:01 -- #32089
Well, to answer your question, here it gets difficult. I don't think it's necessary to define hard bop and post bop in terms of how they relate to the original bebop style. The bebop language and phrasing became the basis for every style to come after it. What post bop and hard bop took from it was the instrumentation...typically two horns (tpt and sax) and piano bass and drums. This instrumentation was actually somewhat new before the bebop era, for a small group. Additionally, it wasn't until the beginning of the bebop period that the instruments had clearly defined roles as we know them today: Bass player walking four beats to the bar (often different notes, in contrast to the heavy note repitition of swing), the drummer moving the time from the hihat (in swing) to the ride cymbal (in everything to follow), and piano adding rhythmic stabs and punches as opposed to the stride-like feel of the big band pianists. The post bop and hard bop groups to follow retained this instrumentation and kept the bebop language. Although, for example, in hard bop, the material performed was largely blues based, the connections to the original bebop groups are largely apparent. Nowadays, we do lump the original bebop groups into the category of "straight ahead jazz" merely because they resemble all the modern types of jazz in ways that its small group predecessors (the Benny Goodman Trio, for example) do not. I don't think bebop should be separated from straight ahead jazz merely because the influence of the bebop language has been inescapable for jazz players; that vocabulary has seeped into every style of playing jazz (even fusion!), and the way that most good players handle improvising over the standard repetoire is bebop rooted. Even with modern players like Chris Potter or Roy Hargrove who play all kinds of out stuff, you can find that a lot of those lines are actually bebop lines, just removed from the chord the rhythm section is playing. It's everywhere, and that's why I think there's no need to differentiate from it, unless the repetoire of a group is ENTIRELY bebop heads.
jazzwee -- 01/04/2007, 15:25:38 -- #32089
Excellent hepcatmonk! ...which does justify my label of Bebop starting with Dizzy/Parker, because Tatum, etc. that came before did not give separate roles for the Rhythm section as defined by Kenny Clarke for drums (and I forget who initiated soloing on bass). I know Evans, Scot Lafaro (much later) made Bass equal to the piano. So Bebop truly does go beyond just the improvising style as instrumentation only came into the picture after that right? That's why I say solo piano, although maybe duplicating a bebop trio, does not in itself define a bebop style of a multi-instrument free for all.
alfredo -- 01/04/2007, 23:10:15 -- #32089
Much appreciated posts, hepcat. May we have an example of what is meant by "deflection" and perhaps a page and measure number in the Omnibook. Thanks
alfredo -- 01/04/2007, 23:23:19 -- #32089
Davaid Baker teaches that 5th of the scale can be "deflected" from beats 1 or 3 to beats 3 or 1 and then continuing the "line" the improvisor was taking. For example the deflection to be a half step below and a step above as in: G being 5th and target note; G F# A F# G (in eighths) the deflection will usually encompass 2 whole beats (simplified). I see it as an elaborate enclosure, a shape that delays the arrival at a target note.
alfredo -- 01/04/2007, 23:25:20 -- #32089
Deflection is another term for enclosure.
alfredo -- 01/04/2007, 23:28:59 -- #32089
"Lester Leaps In" a transcription of Lester Youngs solo in C! http://www.mikefahie.com/services/lester.pdf
hepcatmonk -- 01/05/2007, 15:17:25 -- #32089
alfredo, thanks and you're welcome. Deflection is just how you describe it, as David Baker teaches it. However, deflection is different from enclosure because deflection arrives at the target chord tone first--then the deflection occurs. However, enclosure primarily occurs before the target note. For example, on a C7 chord, the target note for our devices will be a G, lines are in 8th notes, going to the nearest note: Deflection: C B Bb A G F# A F# \| G F E D C B Bb D \| A G Enclosure: C B Bb A Ab F# G F \| E D C B Bb D A G \| C Bb It's important to note that this is just one kind of enclosure; there are too many to name. The other thing about enclosure is that it can be done on any chord tone, whereas deflection's on the fifth. To learn more about it, I'd say the best thing to do would be to consult the David Baker books on bebop. I studied bebop under him and found his approach and methodology about learning bebop without compare.
AndyD -- 01/05/2007, 23:04:57 -- #32089
Very interesting and informative discussion Thank you. Andy
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