| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Chords don't seem to fit songs I've been playing to | |
| b0ng0 -- 01/02/2007, 16:53:14 -- #32114 | |
| I have recently been trying to play along to Autumn Leaves and Freddie Freeloader. Working out the actual chords and key isn't too hard for me but when I try to play the notes from the chords they don't always seem to fit and I find myself having to work out the notes in a very brute-force fashion. In for both songs I have found the chords through the "lead sheets" section on this website but I find that the chords are actually bluesy chords even though the songs are not listed as being in the key of *note*-blues, e.g. Autumn Leaves in the key of G but has "blue" notes included in it. Am I just making some horridly stupid mistake or is there a way to work out exactly how the chords / notes are in songs. THanks Dave | |
| jazzwee -- 01/02/2007, 17:58:06 -- #32114 | |
| I wouldn't classify Autumn Leaves as being bluesy at all. I have a feeling you're picking the wrong scale for the minor ii-V-I (F#m7b5 B7b9 Em7). From memory, the chords are Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 F#m7b5 B7b9 Em7 etc. So start off, you can just play the G scale over this. Later you will need to consider that the minor ii-V requires some altered and diminished scales. | |
| b0ng0 -- 01/03/2007, 07:54:39 -- #32114 | |
| I have tried what you have said yet for some reason, even just playing the chords doesn't seem to sound right. When I try to work it out just by myself I keep finding I have to add in an Bb or it sounds completely wrong, yet if it's in the key of G should it just have an F#? | |
| Scot -- 01/03/2007, 08:18:27 -- #32114 | |
| See my response in Scot's Studio | |
| Barry -- 01/03/2007, 09:33:10 -- #32114 | |
| I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Do you mean the chords don't sound like they fit with the melody you are playing? If this is the case, are you sure you're playing the melody and the chords in the same key? Autumn Leaves is technically in a minor key rather than a major and is normally played either in Em or Gm. The chords jazzwee posted above are in Em. This means the first note of the melody should be an E (E, F#, G, C). If you play the melody in Gm then the first melody note is a G and the opening chords are: | Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | | Am7b5 | D7b9 | Gm | Gm | The first phrase of the melody would be G, A, Bb, Eb I hope this helps. However, if not, perhaps you could clarify exactly what it is you're doing and where it sounds wrong and I'm sure we'll be able to help you further. | |
| jazzwee -- 01/03/2007, 09:34:33 -- #32114 | |
| There's no Bb in there. At which chord do you feel like adding a Bb? As a passing tone that will work of course but it is not a primary chord tone. Most tunes can be made bluesy by sliding from b3 to the 3, but study the character of the tune as it doesn't really sound good in the wrong context. Here you must be thinking of applying it to a Gmaj7? This is not like a G7 where a shift from Bb to B can imply a Gm7 or G7 as in the blues. The Gmaj7 is a release chord here. With certain voicings of the Gm7 (like adding a 9 which is very typical) you'd have a little conflict with the b3. There are other tones possible here (non of which involve a Bb). For example on the F#m7b5, you can play an altered scale. F F# G# A B C D E On the B7B9 you can play a Half-Whole diminished scale, F F# G# A B C D Eb At no point do I see Bb implied here. | |
| jazzwee -- 01/03/2007, 09:35:18 -- #32114 | |
| With certain voicings of the GMaj7... | |
| jazzwee -- 01/03/2007, 10:13:53 -- #32114 | |
| Barry, he was referring to Autumn Leaves in G which is therefore G (Em). It's the key in the Real Book. So my comments are with respect to this key. | |
| jwv76 -- 01/03/2007, 10:54:46 -- #32114 | |
| If you play the melody in Gm then the first melody note is a G and the... first phrase of the melody would be G, A, Bb, Eb seemed pretty self explanatory to me. | |
| jwv76 -- 01/03/2007, 11:00:22 -- #32114 | |
| jazzwee I just saw that your post was in response to bongo, not barry...anyway what I think Barry is getting at is that he may be reading a lead sheet that is written in Em but playing along with a recording that is played in Gm. | |
| Barry -- 01/03/2007, 19:35:53 -- #32114 | |
| That's exactly what I was guessing at jwv. I was wondering if b0ng0 had been trying to figure it out the melody by ear and putting it against the chords from the ralph patt site in a different key. I wasn't sure whether it's in G meant Gm or the key signature of G major (of which Em is the relative minor). Also G natural/jazz minor contains both a Bb and an F# - most easily thought of as a major scale with a flattened third. Hopefully b0ng0 will explain what was meant. I quite agree that in Em there is no way that Bb would be more consonant than B natural but, seeing as that's what he was hearing, I was guessing that he/she has got something a little mixed up along the way between the harmony and melody. Incidentally, the key depends which real book you are talking about - in the old (illegal) book it does appear in Em but in the New Real Book (vol 1 - Chuck Sher), the Leaves is written in Gm. Gosh we know how to make things complicated for ourselves don't we! ;-) | |
| jazzwee -- 01/03/2007, 21:21:53 -- #32114 | |
| I know he was referring to G(Em) because he said he got it from this site (Ralph Patt) and that was the same key there. | |
| b0ng0 -- 01/04/2007, 14:21:13 -- #32114 | |
| Thanks for all the replies, appreciated. The main problem I was having was playing along to the album version of Autumn Leaves and using the chords given on Ralphs site. jazzwee: In regards to the Bb, I have found myself having to play it for the opening riff (G Bb D E D - just what sounds right to me) and also in the opening chords. When playing along that B natural just doesn't sound right. Obviously I have something wrong here, i'm just not sure what. Thanks | |
| jwv76 -- 01/04/2007, 15:01:52 -- #32114 | |
| Bongo, the chords on the ralph patt site are the correct chords, but they are transposed to a different key. I assume you are listening to the classic Miles Davis recording, with the opening riff that goes G Bb D E D, which is a G minor 6 chord. They then play the tune in G minor (the first three chords make you think the tune is in Bb major, but then it modulates to G minor, the relative minor. Since the last chord of the song is G minor, it is incorrect to say the tune is in Bb major, G minor is the correct key.) The chords that you got from the ralph patt site are in E minor. Right chords, wrong key | |
| jazzwee -- 01/04/2007, 15:16:37 -- #32114 | |
| Yup, B0ng0, you'll need a leadsheet to read the melody notes right. In G(Em), the opening melody for the first Am7 chord goes E F# G B. You see why Bb won't work here? B Natural is in the melody. | |
| b0ng0 -- 01/04/2007, 15:27:37 -- #32114 | |
| Thanks for your help. I'll go and try that now :) | |
| Barry -- 01/04/2007, 19:37:19 -- #32114 | |
| Ah, so I was right. b0ng0 if you want to play along with a recording in Gm, try these chords: | |
| Barry -- 01/04/2007, 19:42:50 -- #32114 | |
| Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm | Gm | Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm | Gm | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm | Gm | Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 C7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7 | Am7b5 D7 | Gm | (G7) | As a general rule, you can alter the D7 chords if you wish (make them D7b9 for example) and sometimes people play substitutions in the Gm7 C7 Fm7 Bb7 section but this should get you started. Hope this is useful. | |
| gsandberg -- 01/05/2007, 06:51:31 -- #32114 | |
| "jazzwee -- 01/04/2007, 15:16:37 -- #32171 Yup, B0ng0, you'll need a leadsheet to read the melody notes right. In G(Em), the opening melody for the first Am7 chord goes E F# G B. You see why Bb won't work here? B Natural is in the melody." Shouldn´t that be: the opening melody for the first Am7 chord goes E F# G C? | |
| jazzwee -- 01/05/2007, 09:14:49 -- #32114 | |
| Ahhh, you're probably right. I don't have a keyboard in front of me. It was a muscle memory guess...my bad. | |
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