Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: Looking through the real books I have, I see a lot of B-7b5 to E7b9 progressions

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Looking through the real books I have, I see a lot of B-7b5 to E7b9 progressions
ProAce -- 02/15/2007, 17:11:59 -- #33087
My question is, why isn't the B-7b5 just written as a Bų7, and why is this so common? Is it a special type of progression of some sort? I really like it. Thanks again.
ProAce -- 02/15/2007, 17:13:07 -- #33087
I meant, I see alot of B-7b5 to E7b9
CynBad -- 02/15/2007, 17:24:06 -- #33087
That is a ii-V progression in A minor. It looks like the normal type of ii-V for a minor key. I agree with you, though, that I prefer the half-diminished notation to the minor-7-flat-5 notation. It's so much quicker for me to think "half-diminished".
ProAce -- 02/15/2007, 17:42:18 -- #33087
Ah ok, I've been studying so much of the major progressions, that I never bothered to learn the minor ones. Shame on me.
dalty52 -- 02/15/2007, 19:26:33 -- #33087
-7(b5) tends to be less vague. A traditional diminished chord in b would contain the notes b,d, and f. It doesn't make sense to say you are "halving" that diminished structure by merely adding an a above it. To me, it would be more appropriate to use this "half-diminished" terminology for the the chord b, d#, f, a. But, then again..........that doesn't have a diminished sound at all.....There is nothing vague about a -7 chord with a flatted fifth. It's straight, to the point, no ambiguity. Also, diminished sounds traditionally resolve up or down a half step in a progression(i.e. viio7 to I or biiio7 to ii-7.) The two chord of a ii-v-i does not usually serve this sort of function, therefore it makes more sense to keep the ii-7(b5). Although, one could argue that this chord tends to be a precursor(in a ii-V-i) to the upcoming V7(b9), which functions like viio7, and therefore is "half" of it since only one note is needed to move from the ii-7(b5) to the V7(b9)(other than the root, obviously). Another thing is......in written manuscript, it can be easy to mistake the two different diminished symbols if it is written poorly. LOL....that reminds me(this is a total tangent)........one time at Berklee, this guy brought in a chart for everyone to play...and the drummer got a part that said "Swing for 97 bars". No notation........nothing......just those words on a sheet of paper. So, in reality,..........I'm happy to receive a manuscript that has been cared for, even if I disagree with some of the notation.
dalty52 -- 02/15/2007, 19:27:46 -- #33087
(I guess that last bit wasn't really a tangent......though, when I started writing it, I thought it was going to be!)
CynBad -- 02/16/2007, 13:56:07 -- #33087
"half-diminished" is just a shorthand way of designating the 7 b5. There is no ambiguity about it. I was taught that way, and I suppose the way we are taught is usually the way we prefer. When reading a chart or lead sheet, I think quicker is better. It's a pain to have to read all those extra symbols and think about them, especially when you are just starting.
dalty52 -- 02/16/2007, 19:07:31 -- #33087
Yeah, I usually find it painful to have to think when I'm learning something.
CynBad -- 02/16/2007, 22:12:35 -- #33087
Yeah, OK Dalty, you have a point, you're right about the clarity thing. I'm just saying I'd rather be THINKING about what the chord actually IS than THINKING about reading/interpreting the two extra characters in the notation. It's just what one is used to seeing...
jwv76 -- 02/17/2007, 00:01:50 -- #33087
It doesn't make sense to say you are "halving" that diminished structure by merely adding an a above it. The notes B-D-F make up a diminished chord. The notes B-D-F-Ab make what is called a fully diminished chord, it is a diminished chord with a diminished 7th above the root added to it (any note in the chord could be the root, whatever the bass note is is the root). The notes B-D-F-A make a half diminished chord. It is a diminished chord with a minor 7th above the root added to it, as opposed to a diminished 7th. Not that it makes any huge amount of sense either that raising the seventh of the chord a half step justifies calling it "half" diminished, but that is the convention, as I understand it.
dalty52 -- 02/17/2007, 10:08:26 -- #33087
Right......note that you said "a minor 7th above the root"...........that is where the arguement stands that -7(b5) is less vague..............becuase it actually STATES that there is a 7 in the chord(7 meaning that the 7th is flatted...a minor 7....the same as if you were to write C7). It also states that the chord has a minor quality with the use of the -(which would mean that you flat the third), and it says that the fifth is flatted. There is absolutely NO ambiguity whatsoever. Semantically, it is more correct, even though BOTH symbols get the job done(unless they are written in chicken scratch). It is sort of like HTML.......when you write HTML, sometimes there are choices about what to use. For instance, to write out an address in italics, you could use <p><em>address</em></p> OR you could write <address>address</address>. Both would generally produce the same result(an italicized address), BUT.........which one is a better choice? Obviously, the <address> tag is, becuase there is no ambiguity about what is contained within the tag. This sort of thing is not important for everyone, but is important is someone is using a screenreader to view HTML pages...... CynBad has a good point that it depends on what a person is used to seeing.......if you are USED to seeing the circle with a dash...........you might get tripped up when you see the -7(b5). That doesn't mean that it is the BEST way..just because you are used to it. Our society does tend to do that, though.............stick to what is comfortable, instead of trying to better ourselves, and maybe do the right thing. Using cleaner fuel would enable us to get from one place to another like we are used to, producing the same result as we have now with our dirty fuel. But, in order to use clean fuel, we would actually have to CHANGE something........and spend money on LEARNING how to change it..............which is something that takes effort and sacfrifice. Obviously, the notation of a -7(b5) chord is not nearly as important as the environment :o) but I think you see what I'm getting at. If musicians get lazy with their notation, the result could possibly pollute the soundwaves for future generations.
Jazz+ -- 02/17/2007, 12:40:18 -- #33087
It's simple, the name "Half dimished" came about because it's a minor 7th chord that is half way towards being fully diminished. Think about it.
Jazz+ -- 02/17/2007, 12:42:53 -- #33087
ų = 1 characters for the brain to process -7 b5 = 4 characters for he brain to process In general will the brain process four characters or one character more quickly? My brain porcesses one more quickly.
jwv76 -- 02/17/2007, 12:48:35 -- #33087
Well, I wasn't arguing one way or another, I was just explaining why it's called "half" diminished, it's to differentiate it from a fully diminished chord. Both are four note chords, a triad with a 7th above it, one has a diminished 7th, one has a minor 7th. The notation for a three note diminished chord, just the triad, is a small circle. The notation for a fully diminished chord is a small circle followed by a 7. The notation for a half diminished chord is a small circle with a line through it, it is not necessary to put a 7 after it because it is already implied in the chord, although some people put one in anyway. To me both notations are perfectly legitimate and there's not a huge amount of mental tic-tac-toe in order to figure out that both symbols represent the same thing. I'm just as used to seeing one as I am the other. When I'm writing out charts I use the circle with a slash through it because it's quicker, it "uses less ink," as they say. My theory teacher used that notation, but these days the -7b5 is seemingly more common.
7 -- 02/17/2007, 14:22:10 -- #33087
I perceive a functional difference between a half-diminished seventh and a minor seventh with a flatted fifth. Whereas a m7b5 is quite often found as a "crunchier substitute" for the "blander" m7 chord. This quite common all over jazz. A minor 7th chord with a flatted fifth functioning as a borrowed parallel ii chord in a major key will prefer a scale with a natural 2 such as the sixth mode of the melodic or harmonic minor. A half-diminished 7th functioning as a ii in a minor progression will prefer a scale with a flatted 2nd such as the Locrian. I believe that the reason one sees nowadays the symbol "m7b5" more often than "Ų7" is due to the fact that most people don't know how to find the "Ų" symbol on their computers (Alt+0216).
dalty52 -- 02/17/2007, 20:11:45 -- #33087
In fact, you can use either scale in either situation. The difference in the scales is that, you would never actually LAND on the b2 of this scale. It really only works as a passing tone, while, the natural 2 works as an extension of the chord(i.e., the 9th) and you can land on this note without it clashing with the harmony(unless, of course, you are not really playing a "modern" sound). It doesn't matter whether it's minor or major. There is no functional difference between -7(b5) and half diminished. They are the same thing, it's just a matter of arguement as to which terminology is best suited. One of the major reasons -7(b5) is used in the minor ii-V-i is due to the fact that the flatted fifth on the ii is the same note as the flatted 6th in it's related i chord......which is the note that evokes a harmonic minor sound. When it is substituted in a major ii-V-I, it serves the purpose to surprise the listener at the end of the progression, therefore, no change in the scale is needed.(and, both scales work in each situation, so it doesn't relaly matter).
jazzwee -- 02/17/2007, 22:56:55 -- #33087
an aside... I would think that the better scale for a half diminished would be the 6th mode of the Melodic Minor (Locrian #2), which basically would skip the minor 2nd (everything else remaining the same), IMHO, (and as stated in the Levine book), the b9 is considered an avoid note in Locrian (major) scale for half diminished, although it is in the scale. A major second is probably better sounding. Going back to the argument of m7b5 vs. half diminished, the historical argument has been that in the old bebop, b5 was commonly used. Now this interval is frequently referred to as +11 or Lydian. So this is probably why texts frequently bow out of referring to b5 so there's no confusion. For example, would you really care to see a Maj7(b5)? We probably would expect to see Maj7(+11) more often. For my personal tastes, I don't care. I'm used to seeing it either way, although I've gotten trained early on on m7b5 or -7b5, although as I said earlier, I would prefer never to see a b5 notation outside of a half diminished context.
jazzwee -- 02/17/2007, 22:59:38 -- #33087
oops, dalty52 said the same thing about the scale...Sorry to be repetitive.
7 -- 02/17/2007, 23:55:49 -- #33087
In fact, you can use either scale in either situation. The difference in the scales is that, you would never actually LAND on the b2 of this scale. It really only works as a passing tone I must be missing something here. If I'm in a minor iių-V-im situation, the b2 over the half-diminished chord sounds GREAT. I don't see why you would want to avoid the b2. I could hang on that note all day long.
Jazz+ -- 02/18/2007, 01:24:32 -- #33087
The actual name "half diminished" came about because the chord is half way to becoming a fully dimished 7th chord. The 6th mode of Melodic Minor and 7th mode of Major (Locrain) are both good. In many contexts playing the Locrian #2 scale can actauly sound false (Blues For Alice, Blue Bossa, etc. are tunes I prefer to hear Locrian on the ų chords. It's smoother). #11 and b5 don't mean the same thing harmonicly: #11 chords still include a perfect 5th, b5 chords don't.
jwv76 -- 02/18/2007, 02:28:23 -- #33087
That's an illegal minor 9th! Call the police! I'm just kidding, I agree, locrian over iių in minor sounds more like minor, locrian #2 sounds more like major. Half diminished chords share some of the same tonal qualities as dominant chords, they can "stand up" to a minor 9th, the resulting dissonance is not jarring to the ear because the resolution to the tonic chord is so strong. BTW, just to open another can of worms, Maj7b5 is NOT the same thing as Maj7(+11). C Maj7(+11) is C-E-G-B with an F# above it. C Maj7b5 is C-E-Gb-B. The difference is that in CMaj7(+11) both G and F# are present in the chord. With C Maj7b5, there is no G in the chord, the function of the fifth is already taken by the Gb, the only other place to put a G in that chord would be as an extension, in the next octave, but then it would clash with the Gb a minor 9th below it. What this means in terms of corresponding scale is that while Maj7(+11) implies lydian, to me Maj7b5 implies the 3rd mode of melodic minor, A melodic minor over C Maj7b5 for example. You can use Lydian over Maj7b5, but (in C again) the G becomes an "avoid" note because it clashes with the Gb in the chord. In terms of voicings, when I see Maj7(+11) I will usually just voice it as a Maj7 chord, if I'm soloing I will use Lydian in my solo to voice the +11, if I'm comping behind a soloist I might play the +11 as part of some sort of upper structure in my right hand, high enough that it won't clash with the soloist. For Maj7b5, since the implied scale is derived from melodic minor, the voicing is interchangeable with any of the other chords that commonly use the same melodic minor scale. For C Maj7b5 you could use the left hand voicing F#-B-C-E, which is the same voicing you could use for A-6 (implies A melodic minor), D7 (can also imply A melodic minor), Ab7alt (ditto), and F#ų (which, as has been pointed out in this thread, also can imply A melodic minor). For a study in Maj7b5 chords, check out some Joe Henderson compositions, Black Narcissus and Inner Urge are both in the real book.
jwv76 -- 02/18/2007, 02:46:06 -- #33087
Now I'm the one being redundant, my post was supposed to follow 7's, I didn't see jazz+'s post before I wrote. I disagree about the nomenclature of half diminished, I think it goes diminished, which is a triad, then fully diminished, which is a natural extension of the symmetrical structure of a diminished triad, and then half diminished, which is not quite so symmetrical.
Jazz+ -- 02/18/2007, 19:12:07 -- #33087
In order, the largest interval stacks to smallest: C Maj 7 C7 Cmi7 Cmi7 b5 C dim 7 Do you not see the intervals are getting smaller smaller with each type of seventh chord and that Cmi7 b5 is "half" way in between the C-7 and the fully compressed C dim chord?
Jazz+ -- 02/18/2007, 19:16:24 -- #33087
What tune has a CMaj7 b5 in any fake book? Third mode of Melodic Minor is associated with C Maj7 +5 Music theory recognizes four types of triads (major, minor, diminished, augmented) none of which have a major 3rd and a b5 together. C Maj7 b5 is illogical.
7 -- 02/18/2007, 21:29:11 -- #33087
So would you prefer to call it a Cmaj7#11 with no fifth? Jobim's "Agua de Beber" contains a BbMaj7#11, and the guitar voicing does not include a fifth. On piano it sounds better without the fifth too.
jazzwee -- 02/18/2007, 21:57:17 -- #33087
Hi 7, regarding the b2 interval on a -7b5 Locrian scale, if you're into playing outside I'm sure it's a valid sound. Playing in a consonant kind of style, I was taught to be wary of b9 notes on non-dominant chords except as passing tones. So I'm just passing what I was taught and I respect your choices on this. According to Levine, this in fact was an generally accepted avoid note from early bebop, (and I would guess particularly on a downbeat). Hi Jazz+, "Music theory recognizes four types of triads (major, minor, diminished, augmented) none of which have a major 3rd and a b5 together. C Maj7 b5 is illogical." I think that was my point. I'm not familiar with any other usage of b5 aside from a diminished triad. In other uses I would expect that particular tone to be represented by a +11 (with all other related voicings applied as pertinent such as having no perfect 5th).
jazzwee -- 02/18/2007, 22:29:42 -- #33087
"The 6th mode of Melodic Minor and 7th mode of Major (Locrain) are both good. In many contexts playing the Locrian #2 scale can actauly sound false (Blues For Alice, Blue Bossa, etc. are tunes I prefer to hear Locrian on the ų chords. It's smoother)." Can you please explain jazz+? Since the only difference between Locrian and Locrian #2 scale is the flat 2 turned into a major 2nd, what do you mean by it sounding false? So you're saying it works best with b2 on these particular tunes? Why do you think that is?
jwv76 -- 02/18/2007, 23:44:55 -- #33087
What tune has a CMaj7 b5 in any fake book? I already referenced two songs where that chord is found. It's not a common chord, but it is a real chord. A much more common chord is Dom7b5, which would be the same "illogical" triad, but with a minor seventh instead of a major seventh. My point is that a b5 in chord notation is NOT the same thing as #11, they are altering two completely different parts of the chord, even if the resulting alteration is enharmonically the same. Chord structure is based on tertial harmony, thirds stacked up on top of thirds. Whether it's voiced or not, every chord can be thought of as having a root, a third, a fifth, a seventh, a 9th, an 11th, a 13th, and a 15th. A chord is a series of thirds. b5 means you are altering the second tone up from the root in the series, +11 means you are altering the fifth tone above the root in the series. Regarding Locrian over iių, playing Eb over Dų in C minor is not "outside" at all, it's squarely within the key. Playing an E natural in C minor would be more outside than playing Eb. I'm going to try and attach an audio file of the sound I'm talking about. I'm playing iių-V7-i in C minor and emphasizing the Eb over the iių.
7 -- 02/18/2007, 23:51:35 -- #33087
Hi 7, regarding the b2 interval on a -7b5 Locrian scale, if you're into playing outside I'm sure it's a valid sound. Playing in a consonant kind of style, I was taught to be wary of b9 notes on non-dominant chords except as passing tones. So I'm just passing what I was taught and I respect your choices on this. According to Levine, this in fact was an generally accepted avoid note from early bebop, (and I would guess particularly on a downbeat). It's not a question of what you were "taught", it's a question of hearing how the notes sound in relation to the underlying harmonies. I'm sitting here at my piano playing \| BŲ7 E7b9 \| Am9 \| my LH voicings are BŲ7: A B D F E7b9: G# B D F Am9: G B C E The C (a flatted 2 in relation to the BŲ7) doesn't merely "work" it sounds GREAT! That C sounds terrific over the dominant chord as well. All you have to do is PLAY the progression above and noodle around with the Am scale focussing on lines that heavily favor said C note and you'll HEAR immediately what I'm talking about. And it doesn't sound "outside" in the least.
jwv76 -- 02/18/2007, 23:58:56 -- #33087
Well, I wasn't able to upload my file, even after I compressed it was too big. But do what 7 says, play around with it for yourself.
dalty52 -- 02/19/2007, 05:57:01 -- #33087
JWV, you are correct...........#11 is totally different than b5. Also............when I sit down and play the b2 over a -7(b5) chord on a standard tune......it sounds wrong.
jwv76 -- 02/19/2007, 15:07:59 -- #33087
It will sound wrong if you just play the chord isolated by itself, it wants to resolve via iių-V7-i to the i. It creates a gravitational "pull" towards the i chord. In the tune "There will never be another you" the first chord of the tune is Ebmaj7. The second chord in the third bar is Dų7. The first chord establishes Eb major as the tonal center. If you play E natural in the third bar, it will sound as if you are modulating away from Eb major and into another key, when it isn't, it's just leading to vi, the relative minor. E natural doesn't sound bad against the Dų by any means, but it doesn't sound like it's in the key either.
dalty52 -- 02/19/2007, 17:08:43 -- #33087
Right. That's what I meant when when I said it sounds good only as a passing tone. It's not that you can't PLAY b2........and, yeah, in that tune, the Eb maintains the tonality.......but, you would still only use it as a passing tone.
CynBad -- 02/19/2007, 17:44:10 -- #33087
Whenever I have trouble sleeping at night, I just revisit this thread.
jwv76 -- 02/19/2007, 19:08:01 -- #33087
Oh, I love this stuff. Makes me feel like I actually got something for the money I'm still paying back on two years of music school.
jazzwee -- 02/19/2007, 21:52:55 -- #33087
I made sure to try this on the piano today and the b2 certainly sounds like it's in the scale (which it is). But since it is the root of major key, it sounds like you're resolving upwards instead of downwards in a minor key. In fact it sounded like a delayed resolution of the I chord from the vii chord. Just to settle my ear, I went into Autumn Leaves which can be a very good test for Locrian #2 vs. Locrian. To my ears, when I used a b2 on the F#m7b5 (which is G), then even when I'm in the minor ii-V-i, I still sound like I'm in the Major ii-V-I and I lost the colors and seemed to have weakened the chord tones of the ii chord (less tension). So specifically for Autumn Leaves, it doesn't sound as crunchy to me. I'm thinking now about something like "Softly as in the Morning Sunrise" and I'm vamping on a minor ii-V-i, going to a b2 on the ii chord might actually offer some variation to the sound. So I'm going to leave this with an open mind and use my ears as a guide for variation. But in general, I would probably prefer to use more of the Locrian #2 sound as a starting sound for more color and to maintain the sound of the ii chord.
dalty52 -- 02/20/2007, 10:39:20 -- #33087
LOL @ jwv76. I hear you, man :o)
Jazz+ -- 02/20/2007, 11:04:17 -- #33087
Mark Levine correctly identifies the chords of Black Narcissus on page 40 of The Jazz Theory Book. Mark was in Joe's band and I studied with Joe and Mark in the 80's. I have copies of Joe's hand written charts and like Mark he writes: \| EbÄ #4 \| FÄ #4 \| BbÄ #4 \| CÄ #4 \| In Joe Henderson's solo on Black Narcissus he played Lydian scales, not the major scale with a b5, which would be: 1 2 3 4 b5 6 7 When playing Ä #4 chords on the piano, if you want to inlcude the natural 5th, then voice the 5th under the #4 to avoid a minor second or a minor 9th.
Jazz+ -- 02/20/2007, 11:05:57 -- #33087
Ä is supposed to look like a triangle, but their is a html problem here... \| Eb Maj7 #4 \| F Maj7 #4 \| Bb Maj7 #4 \| C Maj7 #4 \|
jwv76 -- 02/20/2007, 21:28:19 -- #33087
Well, I still think that Maj7b5 is a legitimate chord. It does sound very cool to my ears to voice the chords in the last section of Black Narcissus in the way I described above. Also, by using a mix of the third mode of melodic minor and lydian scales, you can "smooth out" your lines over those changes, for example if you use C melodic minor over the EbMaj7b5 and then F lydian over the FMaj7b5 it makes for smoother blowing than if you play consecutive lydian scales shifting with each chord. Jim Knapp is the name of the guy who taught 2nd year jazz theory at my school. I also studied with him privately. Jim is, in my opinion, a brilliant jazz composer and arranger, he is highly esteemed in the Seattle jazz community. His band's personnel is a who's-who list of that scene. I specifically recall discussing this chord one day with Jim, we were discussing it within the context of Black Narcissus. I still have my notes from that lesson, and the way I described it above is exactly the way I was taught. But, alas, Jim's interpretation of the chords to Black Narcissus is no substitute for Joe Henderson's, I admit. I do think that the notation Maj7 #4 is just plain wrong, the only place where a 4 belongs in chord notation is if you are talking about some kind of sus chord, but who am I to argue with Mark Levine. Looking through the Jazz Piano book I see that you are correct, he does use that notation.
Cudo -- 02/20/2007, 22:40:33 -- #33087
Hi jwv76, what would be the chordscale of your ma7/b5 chord? Wouldn't it have 2 consecutive halfsteps? You would have one halfstep from the major third to the perfect 4th and the again from the perfect 4th to the flatted 5th. This again wouldn't be a diatonic scale at all. Or would you prefer to have a scale without 4th? In the last 8 bars of the tune "Black Narcissus" all chordscales contain a 5th. Therefore the chordsymbols should contain a #11 instead of a flated 5th. You can't have 2 fifth in one scale. Indicating #4 in the chordsymbol would also be wrong because this would mean there is no 3rd in the chord.
jazzwee -- 02/20/2007, 22:58:47 -- #33087
Hey Cynbad, this stuff isn't boring at all! ;-) This is much better than arguing about who's the better player -- Tatum vs. Peterson vs. Chick vs. Evans etc. I'm with you jwv76, I like discussing this stuff since there's always something new to learn. Doesn't matter who's right or wrong (if there's such a thing in this) as long as one's logic is explained.
jwv76 -- 02/21/2007, 00:15:23 -- #33087
Cudo- Yeah, I thought about that too. If, like I said, chord structure is based on tertial harmony, then in Maj7b5 the interval between the third and the fifth is a diminished third, which is kind of a mind-hump, and you end up with three consecutive half steps and then an augmented 2nd to the 6. It's definately a "special instances" scenario, kind of the same way that C7alt, for which a typical scale association would be C# melodic minor, you end up having two 9ths and no 6th. With the 3rd mode of melodic minor over Maj7b5 you end up having two fifths and no fourth. I think the cool thing about music theory is that a lot of it truly is just theoretical, I mean, there's a definate body of things that are hard and fast rules, but then there tons of special instances where it seems like everyone has their own opinion. With such a relatively new approach to harmony as jazz, music theory is still grasping at catching up with what common practice is. But since common practice is still changing, music theory becomes a fluid, dynamic thing, not a hard science. You still have to understand where it's been coming from in order to understand where it's going, but where it's going will always be changing.
Cudo -- 02/21/2007, 02:32:41 -- #33087
"It's definately a special instances scenario" you said and you are right jwv76. I don't even know how I would call this scale, containing a flat 5 and no perfect 5 at the same time. The facts in the B-part of Narcissus are very clear. The relationship between chords and chordscales is polytonal-unimodal. To say, the chordscale for all those ma7 chords is LYDIAN. Lydian has a perfect fifth and a raised eleven. In "The New Real Book" from Chuck Sher it is written ma7(b5) and this is definitly wrong. :-( In case of the "altered scale (= superlocrian = MM7) we have been cheating a little bit. ;-) Originally we have on the VII degree of Melodic Minor a -7b5 chord. This scale is named SUPERlocrian because EVERY degree is altered downwards. You have 1, b9, b3, b11, b5, b13 and b7. Now, since b11 can be enharmonically changed into M3, we can define this scale also for a dominant 7 chord. The analysis hereby changes however into: 1, b9, #9, M3, #11, b13 and b7. Now you have 2 ninth, but only because we have been cheating a little bit. ;-)
Cudo -- 02/21/2007, 02:34:53 -- #33087
sorry, I ment ...containing a flat 5 and a perfect 5 at the same time.
sdm -- 02/21/2007, 08:26:17 -- #33087
Cudo, isn't the 7th mode of the melodic minor the diminished whole-tone scale? The superlocrian is the 6th mode of the melodic minor. You are correct in that DimWit the altered scale whereas locrian and superlocrian are half-dimished scales - right?
Cudo -- 02/21/2007, 10:33:32 -- #33087
Hi sdm, thanks for responding. Like you said, some people call the MM7 scale also diminished whole-tone scale because the first Tetra-Chord look like a diminished scale and the second Tetra-Chord looks like a wholetone scale, that's right. But it is also called the SuperLocrian like I said before. The scale on the VI degree of MM ist ocasionally called Locrian#2. Please look at http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Theory/ScaleCat.pdf
sdm -- 02/21/2007, 12:05:27 -- #33087
Ah, come to think of it I've been somewhat confused between Lorcrian#2 and SuperLocrian. Thanks for setting me straight.
spfldpianist -- 02/22/2007, 13:13:50 -- #33087
Dear ACE- think of it this way - music moves in 4ths and (as in the standard Rosetta) we need to get to the 3rd in the key of F, the transitional chords are b-7b5 and E7 to A-. The fake books are full of -b5s going up a 4th then another 4th. It's nature's way!
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