| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Comping ... how to start & improve ? | |
| ste -- 03/08/2007, 02:02:18 -- #33600 | |
| Hi, How can i improve my piano comping ? It's one of the hardest (and important) part of piano playing that almost nobody seems to care about... Who has any nice suggestions about how to comp nicely and effectively with piano accompanying a soloist and in a group & big band ? Any books, methods ? Any special advices or exercise to practice to improve comping? Thanks! Ste | |
| dalty52 -- 03/08/2007, 04:07:31 -- #33600 | |
| I agree. I would say, think like you are a drummer. The best compers aren't necessarily great because of WHAT they play, but WHERE they play it. It's all about how you make things fit. There are no rules to comping, and, if you practice out of a book or something, your comping will sound like it was practiced out of a book. You have to COMPLETELY succumb to the moment, and let the music guide you; otherwise, you will end up just playing chords and not really serving the moment. One of the best ways to improve comping is to play along with records and try to mimic what the pianist is doing(obviously, only do this on records where the comping is good). You don't necessarily need to TRANSCRIBE the comping(although, this isn't a bad thing to do), but just try to get the essence of what the pianist is doing. To become a great comper, I think you have to really let go of yourself and your tendencies, and live with the moment. Experiment.....be willing to fail. Good compers: Wynton Kelly - Kind of Blue Chick - all I can say is "You're Everything" Kevin Hays(probably the BEST comper on the scene today......check out the stuff w/Chris Potter) Geoff Keezer Nat King Cole Count Basie etc. | |
| dalty52 -- 03/08/2007, 04:08:47 -- #33600 | |
| MONK! | |
| nate_smith -- 03/08/2007, 21:13:40 -- #33600 | |
| Just be careful when following dalty52's advice b/c Monk is not for the faint of heart, his comping is very far out. really try to feel where the soloist breaths and accent that. also pay attention to dynamic thats really important. don't be afraid to vary the size of your voicings either. going from thick texture to thin texture can be very effective if you use it right. | |
| jwv76 -- 03/08/2007, 22:55:57 -- #33600 | |
| There is a certain element of comping that can never truly be "practiced," in the sense of working it out on your own, exercises, methods, etc., and then later applied to a group situation. There all kinds of voicings and tricks you can practice to put more tools in your bag, so when you want a lighter, spacier voicing, you've got a tool for that, and when you want heavier, denser voicings, you've got something for that too, etc. But when it comes to actually accompanying someone, in a live situation, what is really needed is a truly spontaneous, responsive, flexible mindset. It's kind of cliche, but it really does all come down to listening. As an accompanist, your absolute number one job is take make the soloist and/or band you are accompanying sound as good as possible. There is a sort of spiritual/selfless aspect of group improvisation, or any kind of group music making, of surrendering your own ego's need to sound good, and focus on the greater sound of the band. When I first started going out to a lot of jam sessions I think I made the same mistake a lot of rhythm section players make, I was so worried about whether or not I sounded good, that I never actually listened to what the people I was playing with were doing. I was so afraid of playing the "wrong" things, of not sounding good, that I would run through every trick in my bag at every given chance to, irregardless of whether it fit what was going on musically, I thought that is what would make my playing impressive to other people. I had to have some more seasoned players tell me, some not so politely, that they felt my comping was very intrusive into their solos, and distracting to them. To me, being a good accompanist means letting go of all that self-consciousness and just being responsive and receptive to whatever is going on at the moment. Some times the best way to comp is to lay out and play nothing at all. Only experience playing with other people can make you a good accompanist, but the process can be sped up a bit by having a little faith that by letting go of the fear of playing the "wrong" thing, of just paying attention and listening, that ideas can and will come through in your playing that wouldn't otherwise. | |
| ste -- 03/09/2007, 09:38:30 -- #33600 | |
| Thanks for your suggestions , i really appreciate them ! Starting from scratch is there any basic "practice" routine i could do while listening to the great compers , as dalty suggested ? For example ... pick up a chord (let's assume a maj7 chord) and play them with both hands in all ways (from tonic, from 3rd, from 5th , adding colours, changing top voice , and so on) or do you think it isn't useful at all ? Is there any good exercise to start not being "afraid to play wrong notes" ? If you have some good exercises to start with in comping, i would be very happy to practice it . Thanks and sorry for this request. Ste | |
| jwv76 -- 03/09/2007, 10:36:57 -- #33600 | |
| Certainly anything you can do to get yourself to the point where you know your chords up, down, inside out and backwards is going to help you out when you are comping behind a soloist. If you're talking about practicing comping voicings that's kind of a different thing than practicing comping, to practice comping you really need to have someone to accompany. There are lots of method books that discuss chord voicings. You might try Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano Book," that book gets mentioned a lot around here. A good start is to learn left-hand rootless voicings, and then start adding notes on top of the left hand with your right hand, like chord tones in octaves, or an octave with a fifth in the middle of it, or quartals. | |
| Kai -- 03/09/2007, 11:29:07 -- #33600 | |
| A couple message from the "other" comping room 7 p -- 11/15/2005, 12:00:27 -- #21039 Check out these links: http://www.Jeff-Brent.com/Lessons/comping.html http://www.melbay.com/creativekeyboard/apr04/comping.html otempora11 -- 11/14/2005, 20:14:40 -- #21030 ok so ive been playing the piano forever...but all classical music and the teacher at my school recruited me for a jazz band.... can anyone tell me about comping? Kai -- 11/01/2005, 12:37:51 -- #20478 Pad Comping I'm not sure where this post should be placed. However, since we have acquired a Comping room, it is going here. I'm referring to a comping style known as Pad Comping described tantalisingly in Per Danielson's http://www.melbay.com/creativekeyboard/apr04/comping.html Does anyone know anything further/have any thoughts about this style? History - any connection with keyboard pad? How/why it works so beautifully with ballads? Or is it just that the voicings are so well worked out? The dynamics seem to be particularly important, as woule be the setting in which it is used - by this I am thinking of no noisy guitars drowning these voicings out and/or the levels/mix of any drums/electronic instruments. | |
| Mike -- 03/09/2007, 13:00:07 -- #33600 | |
| There are many good rules that can be stated about comping for other soloists... here is one... Rule number 1.) If you are thinking about comping like Chick Corea does, very busy and rhythmic like that... Dont do it. You are not as good as Chick Corea... you never will be ... not in that way anyways. Find a nice voicing hit it on beat number one and hold it for one two four beats in duration and then hit another nice full boicing and hold that one for same. | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/09/2007, 13:43:05 -- #33600 | |
| Aebersold has a book that completely transcribes Mark Levine's comping on "The Magic Of Miles" (play-along CD). Levine uses the same 5 chord systems again and again. If you want to see what he teaches in action, study that. It should be required for all who study his books. | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/09/2007, 13:49:07 -- #33600 | |
| Good timimg is almost everything in comping. You'll need a highly developed sense of time and swing rhythm. | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/09/2007, 13:50:12 -- #33600 | |
| Good timing is almost everything in comping. You'll need a highly developed sense of time and swing rhythm. Voicings are less important, you could get by with just four note rootless voicings. | |
| savage -- 03/09/2007, 15:08:53 -- #33600 | |
| I thought we agreed on 7 voicing systems :-) http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?intro_off=1&action=forum&sub=display_thread&id=31434&bid=30491 | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/09/2007, 20:51:10 -- #33600 | |
| Yes we did, my typo. | |
| 7 -- 03/09/2007, 23:15:24 -- #33600 | |
| Punching chords rythmically has many similarities to the way a rhythm guitarist approaches it. The beginning of the bar tends to be spare with possibly only a stab on beat one (or on the "pushed one", ie the "and of the four"), the end of the bar may be busier to propel you into the 1 of the next bar. And the "pushed 3" (a hit on the "and of the two") is extremely common in almost all styles of jazz, funk, blues and stuff like that. Of course, every song and every style will have a slightly different treatment, but always keep in mind that LESS IS MORE. As a corollary to the above "rule", remember that if something NEEDS to be there make sure to put it in. The anti-thesis to this corrolary is also true: If something DOESN'T NEED to be in there - LEAVE IT OUT. Here is a very common comping rhythm: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + | |
| jmkarns -- 03/15/2007, 19:26:07 -- #33600 | |
| Teddy Wilson! | |
| jaledin -- 03/15/2007, 19:41:47 -- #33600 | |
| This will sound really simple-minded compared to all of the excellent philosophical advice above (I admire those who can present general strategies for playing in clear verbal language very much), but the easiest ways I found to get a nice mental image of what's going on is to embrace two practice techniques. The first is simply playing along with an album, with a chordal comper like guitar or piano. The second, more analytical approach, is to draw a bunch of barlines on some staff paper and notate exactly where the comping is happening. I tend to put these rhythms just as slashes on the page (with maybe some supplemental things to indicate where the "&" is or so forth). The advantage of the second approach is, if you draw a grand staff or write very neatly on one stave, you can include bits of the melody or specific voicings as the chordal player plays them. You could fill in more detail or less depending on your level of interest in the performance, or come back to your "rhythmic grid" after a few months if you feel in a rut as far as your practice sessions go. If you put things in a really bare-bones, skeletal form, I think a lot of things will become demystified pretty quickly -- it's an easy practice to notate the rhythms, and might be a good way to get your feet wet for more advanced transcription/study projects. For example, if I'm learning a Herbie Nichols or Elmo Hope or Sacha Perry or Bud Powell original, I'll usually start with a rhythmic grid so as to have a firm visual reference which makes the rest of the chores much easier. Bud's "Oblivion" is a good example of a tune where it's all about the rhythm, if you want to learn how comping can work in a broader, tune-oriented context (in this case, LH comping for the RH -- same principle as comping for any other soloist). I couldn't have learned the tune without figuring out the rhythmic structure first -- simply, as in slashes on manuscript paper, trying to find the "one" and so forth. Very simple advice, I know, but sometimes it can help to bring things back to basics especially when you feel daunted by a challenge. | |
| jaledin -- 03/15/2007, 19:44:05 -- #33600 | |
| Sorry, dalty -- I know you said the same thing already, but I just felt like amplifying a tiny bit. It's annoying to me when somebody repeats what's already been said in a thread, especially without credit given, so consider ample credit given gradly. | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/15/2007, 23:16:12 -- #33600 | |
| A must for those studyning comping: Aebersold has books for sale with complete piano comping transcriptions for: Vol. 50: The Magic of Miles Vol. 54: Maiden Voyage Volume 60: Freddie Hubbard Vol. 70: Killer Joe | |
| ste -- 03/19/2007, 14:37:54 -- #33600 | |
| Thanks for your suggestions... i am trying to playalong with records and to notate some comping here and there. I think this kind of approach is good for me. I need to increase my 2-hand voicings using chromatic approach and so on and i am planning to purchase one of the above aebersold transcribed comping books. Thanks again! If anyone has exercises or other strategies for comping i am more than happy if they could post their contribute here so that this post may become a reference for comping in this great site. | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/21/2007, 00:23:16 -- #33600 | |
| Vol. 50: The Magic of Miles Vol. 54: Maiden Voyage Vol. 70: Killer Joe | |
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