| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Help with Jazz Theory | |
| ashley -- 03/25/2007, 08:08:00 -- #34169 | |
| Hi Im new here. Im a fairly new jazz piano student, though I have been playing piano for many years. I am looking for a very good jazz theory book, (besides the Mark Levine book) that is easy to understand for a beginner. Can anyone recommend one? Thank you very much! Ashley | |
| jaledin -- 03/25/2007, 08:29:44 -- #34169 | |
| You might want to consider taking a long, serious look at legit music theory in addition to glancing at whatever the jazz theorists have to say. Walter Piston's "Harmony" is probably the most popular book used in beginning/intermediate college music theory courses. It can be supplemented with reading detailed analyses of classical works (there are good books and articles which explain shorter works by Chopin and Bach, for example). That said, I think all you *really* need to know is in Dan Haerle's "The Jazz Language" -- it's a small book, but extremely concise and includes all of the mechanics of the chord-scale reduction. I think if you eventually learn to reharmonize based on what you hear on albums, you'll be in a much better position to figure out the *why it works* aspect, and to compare notes with more advanced music theory textbook authors, if you learn the standard terminology and have the standard tools of analysis at your disposal, rather than just a relatively simple, relatively incomplete distillation. Of course, you can play all kinds of fantastic music without knowing the why and how -- it just depends on how curious you are or how much free time you have, really. There's also good stuff on the web. Marc Sabatella's Primer (do a google search) is basic but covers all of the chord-scale material. The archives at www.justjazz.com include some deep analysis of jazz chord progressions as well. | |
| CynBad -- 03/25/2007, 12:26:51 -- #34169 | |
| Dan Haerle's "The Jazz Language" I'm adding my vote for this one! It's very comprehensive, with plenty of drills/exercises. | |
| Scot -- 03/25/2007, 13:13:30 -- #34169 | |
| Randy Halberstadt's "Metaphors for the Jazz Musician" is a nice addition to anyone's library. | |
| Jazz+ -- 03/25/2007, 17:24:23 -- #34169 | |
| "Randy Halberstadt's "Metaphors for the Jazz Musician" is a nice addition to anyone's library. " +100 I think it's the best book out there. | |
| jmkarns -- 03/25/2007, 19:20:58 -- #34169 | |
| Agree with Randy Halberstadt's "Metaphors for the Jazz Musician". Very user friendly, with lots of tips. | |
| CynBad -- 03/25/2007, 21:01:08 -- #34169 | |
| Re Halberstadt's book, a lot of it is not theory, but the section on theory is very helpful. His "solar system" metaphor for chords and key centers is great. | |
| ashley -- 03/26/2007, 17:40:16 -- #34169 | |
| Thank you all very much. I will try getting "Metaphors for the Jazz Musician". I have both of Mark Levine's books and though Im sure they will be excellent later on, I need something which would be better for a beginner. | |
| dalty52 -- 03/27/2007, 04:11:35 -- #34169 | |
| Don't forgot to transcribe, as well :o) | |
| CynBad -- 03/27/2007, 08:35:17 -- #34169 | |
| ashley, for a beginner, I would DEFINITELY recommend Dan Haerle's book mentioned above. | |
| Scot -- 03/27/2007, 09:19:01 -- #34169 | |
| The main mistake I made when I was first starting out playing jazz piano was looking for books that would help me learn about jazz piano. If I could do it all over, I would learn strictly from recordings. If I wanted to learn a tune, I would learn it from a record, and if I wanted people I was playing with to learn it, we'd all learn it from the record. I would have spent a lot more time transcribing solos as well. Anyway, don't get stuck on books. Music isn't about books, it's about experiencing something. | |
| dalty52 -- 03/27/2007, 10:29:30 -- #34169 | |
| I second that! | |
| ashley -- 03/27/2007, 12:29:04 -- #34169 | |
| Although I absolutely agree that music is not solely about books, assuming one doesn't know that much about chords, theory, etc..How would they begin to transcribe a song? Would you mind explaining the steps that I would take to do that? Do you mean just listening and writing down the notes..note per note? I would think you would need some sort of background?? | |
| CynBad -- 03/27/2007, 13:35:05 -- #34169 | |
| Yes, ashley, sometimes we forget how much we already know. To transcribe, it is a great help to understand at least basic music theory and to have done some ear training. Basic ear training would involve learning to recognize intervals, both melodic and harmonic, as well as chords and rhythms. Transcribing literally means to "write" what you are hearing, but that is not always how the term is used. Often it means to listen and PLAY what you hear -- and learn the music that way, without necessarily writing it down. In other words, "playing by ear". | |
| Scot -- 03/27/2007, 16:42:11 -- #34169 | |
| What cyn said, but I'll add my take. You don't need to know ANYTHING about music to learn a song from the recording. If you can play the piano, then you can learn the song. Pick an easy tune, such as Freddie Freeloader off that old classic Miles recording (Birth of the Cool or All Blues, they are both vital recordings) and then listen to it and play what you hear. Do that until you have learned the tune. Don't write anything down when learning tunes this way, that's a crutch that will get you in trouble later in your career. After you get Freddie Freeloader, maybe try something like Work Song, Mr. PC, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, All Blues, simple songs that will not only expand your ears, but in listening to them you'll be getting deep into the language of jazz. Now is the time to do things the right way, because when you get older, it's harder to find time to do things the right way. | |
| dalty52 -- 03/27/2007, 17:53:02 -- #34169 | |
| I agree with Scot. Don't write the stuff down. Just learn it! It's tough at first, and you have to really concentrate. But, honestly, this is the best way to learn jazz..........it's how everyone learned before jazz theory books and real books came along. I would say that it is better to transcribe before learning any theory at all. You should at least do it for a little while before cracking any books. It is amazing how much learning jazz from a book can water down a persons feel(and ears) for the music. Most(if not all) jazz piano/theory books are watered down..........they do NOT give you what you need to play great jazz. I'm not saying they are bad.......there is useful stuff in them. But, I would use them as a supplementary source to learning straight from recordings. A good teacher is also beneficial(much more so than books). | |
| ashley -- 03/27/2007, 18:55:52 -- #34169 | |
| Thank you all so much for this valuable advice. I will try learning the tunes this way, though Im sure it will take me awhile! I appreciate your help!! | |
| 7 -- 03/28/2007, 00:03:03 -- #34169 | |
| I disagree with the "don't write it down" faction. This stems from the fact that I have learned so many solos straight off the recording, and then years (sometimes decades) later the tune will crop up again. Since human memory fails, I find myself obliged to run all over the place trying to find the recording again (easier now with the internet though than it used to be) and then re-learn the damn thing all over again. If I had taken the time to scribble a few notes all those years ago I could've saved myself all the time and hassle of "reinventing the wheel". This does not merely apply to Jazz but to all kinds of styles and tunes ... Sometimes I'll sit down and learn a solo phrase by phrase one afternoon, and then by the next day I've already forgotten half of them. This has nothing to do with age or anything else, it's just that if you don't reinforce the hell out of something the human mind doesn't always store it as "permanent" knowledge. | |
| jaledin -- 03/28/2007, 06:50:09 -- #34169 | |
| Well put, 7. I happen to agree with you -- there are a couple more advantages to writing I can think of, especially in the area of accuracy, and maybe more importantly, being able to see and analyze the "shape" of a long, complicated solo where memorizing might be impossible or impractical. I suppose writing *everything* could become a nasty crutch, especially if someone can't learn a 32-bar tune without writing it down first. I tend to think that problem could be pretty easily fixed, though, with a little bit of elbow (ear) grease and awareness of the problem. | |
| knotty -- 03/28/2007, 07:19:38 -- #34169 | |
| It's only a few months ago that I started learning. I have no classical background. So I'm learning from scratch. The first thing I did, I picked up a version of Autumn leaves, one from this site actually, one I thought was simple enough -- so I could play it. After about a week, I was able to play the first 2 bars. From Cm7 to EbM7. And it sounded great. But then a few things happened. I have company in my house often, so I usually practice even if they're here. One guy in particular, when I started playing the 1st 2 bars went "wooooo, that's deep, keep going". When I said that's it, he said, "well, can you play a whole tune. from beginning to end". And I answered, "not at this point". The problem was one month later, I had barely advanced to a few more bars, and I was already starting to forget the first. I could not understand why my left hand was playing a C-G-D-Eb-Bb on a Cm7 chord. So it became purely a memory exercise. Now repeating the same few bars over and over is hardly fun. The point I'm trying to make is I'm sure this is a great tool for people who can already play, so they can always go back to playing for fun once in a while. Until then, I think there's a great risk that beginners will be discouraged at the extremely slow process. Since then, I started taking weekly lessons and learning from books. I may not become a master jazz pianist that way, but I'm learning a number of fun things. I can play a few tunes, and I enjoy it. Once in a while, I listen to a line from a CD, or from my teacher, and I play it where he plays it. If I didn't have my lessons and book, I would probably still not know the difference between C7 and CM7, I would have no clue that there is such a thing as a ii-V-I progression, or what the hell a 13 is. If it wasn't for the teacher, the books and LJP, I think I would have probably given up already. I think what the books do is they allow the average adult beginner like myself to have access to the world of jazz. Be able to understand the complexity and experiment with it. It's only one of the tools available, but I think it's helpful. | |
| pphilip -- 03/28/2007, 07:59:56 -- #34169 | |
| Before the Real books, people used to come up to you on gigs and try to sell fake books. Since, at the time I could never afford to buy them, I started writing down the heads of tunes to make my own fake book. I discovered that I could remember tunes easier by writing them down,however, I never wrote out solos or chord extensions, these I learned on the job. Then I went to college and learned melodic and harmonic dictation which is what we had been doing all along by listening and copying the music. I guess what I'm saying is that listening and writing works best for me. | |
| sdm -- 03/28/2007, 10:00:06 -- #34169 | |
| Knotty, thanks for taking the contrary view. I've often thought that with only a couple of hours a day to work on this stuff, I simply can't afford the time it currently takes me to transcribe as a regular diet. I too started pretty much from scratch so learning a line often involves fingering problems as well as a weak musical memory. All of this is improving but if I spent all that time just trying to transcribe I think it would slow me down a lot. You describe my experience well. Now, that said, I still believe in it but I often think it's more important for the classical player who wants to learn jazz then for someone trying (struggling) to learn the piano through the jazz idiom. These days (for several months) I've been working on a simple 12 bars that Randy (my teacher) put on tape for me. Some day I'll move to the second chorus! | |
| dalty52 -- 03/28/2007, 10:09:13 -- #34169 | |
| "This stems from the fact that I have learned so many solos straight off the recording, and then years (sometimes decades) later the tune will crop up again." So, learn it first, then write it down so you have it documented :o) | |
| rtackett -- 03/29/2007, 15:45:54 -- #34169 | |
| Ashley, though I don't play piano very well, I'm old and wise. I sense from your post that you are experiencing some of the frustration that I experienced until I got a copy of Tim Richards' book, "Exploring Jazz Piano". This is not a book that you read, it's one that you play your way through. And yes, you do know how to transcribe. In the very first lesson you will successfully transcribe a simple solo from the CD that comes with the book. For some reason, this book hasn't yet been discovered by the folks on this site. I suspect it's because they are a lot more advanced than you and I. | |
| 7 -- 03/30/2007, 00:12:12 -- #34169 | |
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