LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Think of ii - V - i as iv - bvi - i

Santeven -- 04/14/2007, 20:40:53 -- #34532

Let's see if I can twist this full circle...in a way that makes it more (easier) like major scale harmony...and explains what makes minor harmony so much more interesting. In the key of Cminor chord:    Dm7b5   G7alt   CmM mode      6th     7th     1st of scale:    FmM     AbmM    CmM                          degreeofC: iv      bvi     i I know some of you aren't going to like that last line... notice I wrote degree not mode ...for me it's a way of thinking about the changes. In major scale harmony, 2-5-1 uses three modes of one scale. On the other hand, minor 2-5-1 uses one mode (each) of three scales. Another way of saying it: Major 2-5-1 changes are changes, but the foundational note pool does not change. Minor 2-5-1 changes are CHANGES:  they're modulations ...the note pool is different for each chord!  This is what makes minor harmony so much more interesting! What do you think?

Jazz+ -- 04/14/2007, 20:54:21 -- #34532

Well said and agreed!

jaledin -- 04/14/2007, 21:43:50 -- #34532

I'm not convinced, but I'd like to be... If iim7 is a substitute for iv6, and V7b9 is just the V7 of i, isn't it all really part of the same cadence? Me, being kind of slow and preferring simplicity, I'd rather think about a cadence than scales.  Minor plagal cadence, for example. IMO, when looking at great players playing, for example, a minor blues, you don't hear them making changes scrupulously -- they're playing in a single tonality, making the adjustments required for slack/tension of resolution.

dalty52 -- 04/15/2007, 06:51:59 -- #34532

I agree, and I think a lot of the great players think about these changes in this manner.  In fact, ii-7(b5) was traditionally written as iv/6.

jwv76 -- 04/15/2007, 12:53:44 -- #34532

Functional harmony in minor keys is derived from the harmonic minor scale (hence the name "harmonic"). All of the chord tones in all of the chords associated with a minor key are found in the harmonic minor scale. In minor I think of a i chord as a minor triad with a somewhat mutable, undefined 7th. In many lead sheets if the overall key is a minor key the i will be written (if you're in C) as just C-, instead of C-7. When I see C-7 it makes me think that it is either a ii, iii, or vi chord of a major key or a iv chord of minor. One scalar approach to ii7b5 V7 i is what Randy Halberstadt calls the minor bebop scale, it is an 8 note scale and can be thought of as either a harmonic minor scale with a flatted seventh added to it or natural minor scale with a major seventh added to it. It suggests the harmonic structure of minor because it has all the notes of the harmonic minor scale, but adding the flatted seventh smoothes out the jagged sounding augmented second between the minor sixth and the major seventh. Over the iim7b5 one would probably want to omit the major seventh from the parent scale, so it would just be C natural minor over Dm7b5, or D locrian. In both major and minor there is a parallel between the chord built from the fourth degree of the scale and the chord built from the second note of the scale. The IV (iv in minor) is the subdominant, the ii chord I've heard called the subdominant parallel. In this system the ii chord is thought of as being simply an inversion of the IV.

Jazz+ -- 04/15/2007, 13:08:47 -- #34532

I agree with all that too, jwv76. And "Santeven's" initial  post accounts for the C-6 type i chord/scale, the "D Locrian #2" type ii chord/scale, and the "G7 alt" type V chord/scale, all which do not occur naturaly in harmonic minor scale.

Santeven -- 04/15/2007, 15:52:44 -- #34532

"In minor I think of a i chord as a minor triad with a somewhat mutable, undefined 7th. In many lead sheets if the overall key is a minor key the i will be written (if you're in C) as just C-, instead of C-7." Excellent analysis! "'Round Midnight" comes to mind.  It (usually) starts on Ebm and the bass walks down to D and then Db, the "both" 7ths of Ebm. jaledin: Thanks for keepin it real in terms of what we like to hear and then attempt to emulate.

7 -- 04/15/2007, 16:15:44 -- #34532

Over a DŲ7 in the parent key of C minor, I would be more likely to use the Eb of the D Locrian rather that the E natural of the F melodic minor (your FmM scale - aka D Locrian #2). Although I would probably prefer the D Locrian #2 in the case of a DŲ7 occuring in a C major context. Using the Ab melodic minor over the G7alt is also know as "The G Altered Scale", "The G Super Locrian" and "The G Diminished-Whole Tone Scale" (aka "The G dimWiT scale"). No surprises here. If thinking of this scale over the G7alt as Ab melodic minor (or AbmM scale) works for you, more power to you. Note that typically the G7alt chord is expressed as some kind of Db7 tritone substitute chord, in which case you can also think of the scale to use over the G7alt/Db7/Db9/Db13/etc chord as "The Db Lydian Dominant".

Mike -- 04/16/2007, 00:38:30 -- #34532

what advantage is there to think of it as iv bvi instead of ii v? I do not see why that is any easier or better than thinking of it as a ii v.  Are you suggesting it just for the sake of variety and to open new paths of creativity, which then I guess I could see the point.

Kai -- 04/16/2007, 02:06:27 -- #34532

IMHO  I think this topic and the ensuing, polite and open, discussion is a prime example of what is so good abut this site. Mike, I understand that YOU do not see the ease of thinking of it in a different way.  However, the topic was obviously welcomed for whatever reason.  Just 'thinking of things in a different way' is sometimes very useful to someone with a different learning style and can often provide a useful 'AHA' moment in the learning curve to people who might be struggling to understand a particular concept. It could well result in new paths of creativity. I, as a prime lurker, am grateful for the opportunity to be able to read and consider these issues. discussions.

dalty52 -- 04/16/2007, 04:29:29 -- #34532

"Are you suggesting it just for the sake of variety and to open new paths of creativity," That is exactly what this type of thinking about changes does.  A lot of times, you can derive simplicity from complexity, once you wrap your head around it.  In this case, it seems more complicated to think about the D-7(b5) as an F-6, however, once you start doing it....you'[ll find that you start using stuff that you play over the F- when you get to a D-7(b5).  In my case, it seems more simple to think F-6 than D-7(b5), I dunno why.  It just does.

dalty52 -- 04/16/2007, 04:34:12 -- #34532

Plus, it is really cool to be able to REUSE material over different spots......instead of thinking about it as playing F-6 over a D-7(b5), you could think of it as a SHAPE, or a SOUND that works over different areas in different ways.  It is sort of like Object Oriented Programming.  The idea in OOP is to create code that is abstract enough to be reusable, so as to not repeat yourself.  It is possible to abstract certain things from music that become reusable in different settings, making the ability to execute that much easier, because there is less material to think about.

Kai -- 04/16/2007, 04:49:22 -- #34532

Hehehe, like avoiding spaghetti programming.

Jazz+ -- 04/16/2007, 10:07:09 -- #34532

The scale fingering is the same as FmM and AbmM is another advantage.

Jazz+ -- 04/16/2007, 10:09:47 -- #34532

Dm7b5 ( I think from the 3rd of Dm7b5, play FmM ) G7 alt ( I think up a half step, play AbmM )

smg -- 04/16/2007, 11:57:07 -- #34532

Just wanted to add-check out 7's site for his excellent files on minor harmony in light of the present discussion.........

Santeven -- 04/16/2007, 12:41:10 -- #34532

thanks smg , was writing some credit for 7 when you posted "The dimwt scale" Are you saying there's something bland about it? compared to the scale you would run? Was wonderin if you might chime in on this... I sorta came up with it after reading what you wrote about autumn leaves being all minor, and your "non-converging minor circle" which i didn't quite grasp... I thought for a second you were going to write out every permutation of twelve notes in those tables!   Dalty: Nice analogy...I do OOP... Are you familiar with IP networking and subnet masking? I have attempted to define the piano programatically by representing the 88 notes as an  88 bit binary number roughly 7 groups of twelve bits each, one for each octave ... didn't get very far with it though. Did you see the Hexagons of 2nds geometric represntation of the twelve key signatures? in post "beyond the circle" Mike:  For me the advantage is I'm always playing (some mode of) a XmM scale, but I'm starting to like Jazz+ method above because it's always relative to what is (usually) written in lead sheets. And i don't have to "know" what is the tonic minor key when I see m7b5, instead I think straight to the third, a non-mutable harmonic foundation note, a great not upon which to start a phrase, and then play tonic minor from there! Still doesn't help much (yet) when I see the tritone substituted dominant 7 refers to.

7 -- 04/16/2007, 13:03:22 -- #34532

"dimWT" is simply shorthand for "diminished Whole Tone scale". It gets that name due to the fact that its bottom tertachord is a hW diminished terachord and its top tetrachord is a Lydian (aka Whole Tone) tetrachord.

Gordon -- 04/16/2007, 17:33:26 -- #34532

All this boffinry makes me feel a bit like a dimWT, but enjoyable nonetheless.

Mike -- 04/17/2007, 03:53:29 -- #34532

For me it makes no dif whether it is the ii chord or the iv chord I use the bVLydian scale and its variations on minor 7 b 5 chords ... so on D minor 7 b 5  If my brain happens to be functioning I am thinking Ab Lydian scale.  Then for the G7 chord with alt tensions I am thinking F lydian diminished or these days a plain old diminished scale because I have been a little OCD on diminished patterns in the practice room.

Mike -- 04/17/2007, 03:54:26 -- #34532

oops I meant to say I use the bVILydian scale

Mike -- 04/17/2007, 03:55:11 -- #34532

oops nope I was right the first time s/b   bV

CynBad -- 04/23/2007, 15:13:24 -- #34532

LOL, OK, how many of us in here are also programmers? I seem to sense a common thread here!

dalty52 -- 04/23/2007, 19:48:58 -- #34532

I actually just got into building websites a couple of years ago and I now work as a front end developer(html, css, javascript, etc). However, I am starting to learn OOP and I can really see connections between music and programming.  I love that Santeven used the term "non-mutable".  Hehe.

Whacky -- 04/23/2007, 22:03:35 -- #34532

I have found it to be quite common for musicians to be programmers and programmers to be musicians.  I dabbled in it a few years ago while considering a career change.

sdm -- 04/24/2007, 08:40:29 -- #34532

My career has been computers but back in the 80's I was in a high-tech company.  They had a software engineering department for their product (laser trimmer if you care) and the guy that ran the department had a doctorate in piano performance.  Computers, math and music.

knotty -- 04/24/2007, 09:09:31 -- #34532

Programmer here too. I'm not quite sure I get the similarity between music and programming. Except for this one guy from a while back. He used to work at Cisco, and could tell all the pitches a good old dial up modem would do while connecting. That was funny. If you search youtube, you'll also find some guy playing 'Fur Elise' with an old printer.  Gotta admit there's creativity there :)

CynBad -- 04/24/2007, 09:19:29 -- #34532

I think the connection has to do with patterns and thinking in the abstract. I have a B.Mus. in Piano Performance, but my "career" has been that of a Programmer/Analyst for 13 years now.   Now that I'm reaching midlife crisis, I'm thinking of spending more time on music and less on the computer.

knotty -- 04/24/2007, 09:53:33 -- #34532

Now that you put it that way, I came across an article a few months back about what the best jobs were. And number 1 was software engineer, followed by University Professor. Those 2 jobs scored really high on Creativity and Flexibility. I guess I do see a connection after all.

DrJazz -- 05/15/2007, 16:51:01 -- #34532

Wow, this thread seems to have gone off topic! Shall we get back to minor ii-V-i? I have tried the three melodic minor scale approach and haven't found it very easy to create melodic lines whilst having to deal with three scales. I've had much better results with b3 pentatonics, using the same key centres as the melodic minor scales, ie: Dm7b5 - FGAbCD G7alt - AbBbCbEbF Cm - CDEbGA These pentatonic scales each contain just five notes from the F, Ab and C melodic minor scales, which makes improvisation much easier, and sounds funky too! You can check out loads of examples and other suggestions for minor ii-V-i too, in Vol 2 of my book EXPLORING JAZZ PIANO. I've sent a copy of Vol 1 to Scot and he'll hopefully post a review soon.. Tim Richards

Bud -- 05/15/2007, 21:25:32 -- #34532

And what are the 5 notes of this b3 pentatonic for this particular minor chord progession (Dm7b5-G7alt-Cm)? Thanks in advance!

DrJazz -- 06/04/2007, 08:16:17 -- #34532

Hi Bud, You have to use THREE b3 pentatonics - I've given the notes of each one next to the chord symbols in my last post. b3 pentatonics are the same as MAJOR pentatonics, but with a minor 3rd. They've also been called DORIAN or MINOR SIXTH pentatonics. If you want to use just ONE pentatonic scale over the whole sequence, the C MINOR pentatonic (CEbFGBb) works well, as does the blues scale (add F# to the minor pentatonic). Otherwise, I suggest either the C harmonic minor or C natural minor scale (7-note scales, not pentatonics). n Vol 2 of my book I demonstrate these approaches via tunes such as YESTERDAYS, SOFTLY AS A MORNING SUNRISE, SUMMERTIME, and BLUE BOSSA (the melody of which uses C natural minor for the whole of the first 8 bars). Good luck! Tim

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