LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Groove vs Technique

7 -- 05/12/2007, 22:02:47 -- #35007

Groove will cover a lack of technique, whereas technique will never be able to make up for lack of groove.

Rid -- 05/13/2007, 04:47:22 -- #35007

Hey, great news, because I'm kinda looking for a shortcut to success, so I won't have to spend years working on technique. So where can I get some of this groove stuff? Is it something you can develop? Ed

Scot -- 05/13/2007, 07:58:40 -- #35007

Technique can be learned, groove is in the blood.  Though I think groove can be learned too as long as you hang out with groovy people.

Jazz+ -- 05/13/2007, 14:07:37 -- #35007

Groove is learned by listening to others "groove" on recordings or live and then practicing that grooving yourself preferably against a steady pulse.

Jazz+ -- 05/13/2007, 14:08:55 -- #35007

You also need a degree of fluidity in your basic technique so as to not have physical limitations that can glitch your movements and timing.

Scot -- 05/14/2007, 08:42:32 -- #35007

Yeah, it's much easier to groove when you don't have to think about where to put your fingers.

ronald1 -- 05/14/2007, 08:56:10 -- #35007

ok, can someone be a little less vague on this groove thing.  I keep hearing it mentioned and am getting paranoid that Im lacking in it.  Is it basically a fancy way of saying natural timing? if it is just a timing issue, then you can obviously develop it; i don't think it should be put down to "in the blood", just maybe listen more, or get groove lessons!

CynBad -- 05/14/2007, 09:46:58 -- #35007

The last time I said some people were naturally better at sight-reading than I, he implied I was being lazy.  :-| I think anything can be learned, including groove, but some people will simply be better at it.

CynBad -- 05/14/2007, 09:47:34 -- #35007

That should read "Scot implied I was being lazy."

Jazz+ -- 05/14/2007, 10:12:07 -- #35007

Groove (music) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search In popular music groove, used in the sense of rhythm, is a term for metre and its embellishment by a rhythm section. Richard Middleton (1999) describes, "the concept of groove – a term now theorized by analysts but long familiar in musicians' own usage – marks an understanding of rhythmic patterning that underlies its role in producing the characteristic rhythmic 'feel' of a piece, a feel created by a repeating framework within which variation can then take place." "Groove", in terms of pattern sequencing, is also known as "shuffle" - where there is deviation from exact step positions. Beyond this generality, the "groove" interpretation technique is widely attributed to James Brown's drummers Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks, traditional Jamaican Reggae, African music and Latin music, and consists of an interpretation and a syncopation of a binary rhythm in soul music by the rhythm section, even though it has reached many other genres. This particular technique is very well explained and documented in a video from Mike Clark (drums) and Paul Jackson (bass). "...even the people who can't dance wanna feel like dancing, thats where groove comes in."-Steve Telehus

Whacky -- 05/14/2007, 11:42:38 -- #35007

I think "groove" comes from a "record" or "bowling" analogy - for example if a bowling ball goes into the gutter it is in a sense in a "groove" that keeps it "in a straight line".  If all balls are in the groove they travel in the the same straight line - if all musicians are in the same groove, they are playing together well - if a player is playing solo - the groove is his/her sense of time that attracts the listener to join in and  groove along... just my two cents.. groove on~

Jazz+ -- 05/14/2007, 11:59:28 -- #35007

In the great rhythm sections (Sam Jones & Philly Joe Jones, Ron Carter & Tony Williams, Scott Lafarro and Paul Motian, etc.) each player has their own "pocket" in relation to the pulse. The bass player plays ahead of the pulse in a front side "pocket". The drummer plays more on top of the pulse in the "pocket". The soloist lays back and plays behind thge pulse in a different "pocket". The different pockets for the different members of the band all get combined. It's flexible. It's one reason certain rhythm sections sound so different.

Jazz+ -- 05/14/2007, 12:29:32 -- #35007

In the great rhythm sections (Sam Jones & Philly Joe Jones, Ron Carter & Tony Williams, Scott Lafarro and Paul Motian, etc.) each player has their own "pocket" in relation to the pulse. The bass player plays ahead of the pulse in a front side "pocket". The drummer plays more on top of the pulse in the "pocket". The soloist lays back and plays behind thge pulse in a different "pocket". The different pockets for the different members of the band all get combined. It's flexible. It's one reason certain rhythm sections sound so different.

Jazz+ -- 05/14/2007, 12:31:22 -- #35007

Oscar Peterson and Monty Alexander played pretty much on top of the pulse. Miles Davis and Red Garland played mostly behind the pulse, which I prefer the sound of.

7 -- 05/14/2007, 23:14:22 -- #35007

Groove has the appearance of being an intangible, that which is absolutely essential yet virtually impossible to quantify. Groove is an organic quality that is uniquely human. One could surmise that it is an innate skill available only to those lucky enough to have been born with it. Yet it can certainly be developed, I did. Early on in my playing, other musicians were constantly telling me to "loosen up" (which generally made me even more uptight!), but I learned that relaxation is one of the key elements to achieving the mystical state of "groove". Learning to "flow" and subordinate the ever questioning conscious mind to the reflexes of the subconscious was a battle that was not easily won. Luckily, I was forced to "let go" by jazz musicians much more experienced than myself - I found that when I stopped trying so hard to be perfect, the outcome was actually better than perfection! I finally understood that music is a living breathing entity unto itself, that my attempts to cage it by my perceptions of sterile perfection almost invariably caused it to cease to live. I know this sounds really zen, but the that's the way my transformation took place. 7

Scot -- 05/15/2007, 08:37:00 -- #35007

Groove CAN be developed. I certainly didn't start out with groove.  Groove and time to me are the same thing, and I remember the MOMENT I "got" time.  I spent three months playing duo piano stuff with a friend, a very cute jazz pianist, and she and I would jam on tunes and do stuff like change keys every chorus. It wasn't easy to do.  During that same period I was working out with a metronome with charlie parker songs, the david baker bebop series, and an obscure set of be-bop licks that I think are now being published only for guitar. After about six weeks of intense metronome workouts (even walking around with one, turning it on, then turning it off, then later turning it on to see if I kept the time in my head) the girl said to me, "Whoa, you got good!" I didn't get good, but for some reason, time] clicked for me.  After that point, I could feel forms of tunes, I didn't have to count them any more. I could feel where 1 was, fast or slow tunes doesn't matter.   Sometimes it's still hard. if the bassist isn't laying it down and the drummer likes to float around I have to work harder at it, but it's still there. Bill Mays calls it "belly time". You feel it in your belly.  When it clicks, you know it. And all jokes aside, you CAN learn time/groove, you just have to decide that it's important.   Now with band in a box and really slick drum machines, you can learn time the fun way. Turn on some really funky beat and play some repeating pattern over it until that beat moves from the outside of your body to the inside. You'll feel it. You'll feel like you OWN that beat. You'll say, "That beat is mine. I own this groove." I feel like a self help book :)

GS_Jon -- 05/15/2007, 10:46:18 -- #35007

Ah yes, the paradoxical combination of relaxation and concentration.  Very zen.

Jazz+ -- 05/15/2007, 11:12:36 -- #35007

There is a differnce between having good time and being able to really groove.A player can have good time and maintain a very accurate pulse (time) but not have a good feel or "groove" in realtion to that pulse, the music doesn't feel great. And another player can have an inconsistant pulse but make the music "feel" really good or "grooving." For example  lot of blues players make the music groove but have an inconsistant pulse (time). Some classical players can have very good time but can't make music that "grooves".

ETNOPHONY -- 05/23/2007, 10:56:46 -- #35007

i think about this theme that the feel or groove is in the sense or direction of music himself, for example the sense of the son is think more speed the tempo than the normal by the way the sense of colombian cumbia is the contrary is more slow than the normal tempo here is the groove if is not the tecnique there is no groove..¡

Jazz+ -- 05/23/2007, 13:12:04 -- #35007

That's right, the "son" groove is on the front sde of the pulse and the "cumbia" is on the backside. Yes, you need some technique to keep those grooves in their zones (pockets).

clobaton -- 05/23/2007, 15:03:01 -- #35007

ETNOPHONY, are you from colombia? if so please drop me a message in albetans room. about the groove thing, we latin people dance since we are kids (3 yrs old or less!) so it helps to have the groovy blood, and I agree with 7 in that the best thing comes when you loosen up.. I recently had to trick my guitar player so that he could finally stop worring and start loosing up, the result was a nice song, I hope I can upload it  soon to youtube (it's rock, so it's much easier than jazz...)

Jazz+ -- 05/23/2007, 17:54:29 -- #35007

Yes, part of technique is the ability to relax and play.

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