LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Playing in Five
hepcatmonk -- 05/15/2007, 23:10:41 -- #35087
I've been transcribing Kurt Rosenwinkel's great solo on Jochen Rueckert's cd Introduction, on the tune In Your Own Sweet Way. This is a  tremendous solo with plenty of great material to transcribe and use, and the way Kurt and Jochen play over the barlines is astounding and hard to follow!

I was going to ask; does anybody regularly practice playing in odd time signatures? And in what ways do you practice it?
I've been practicing improvising while walking a bassline, practicing with different metric subdivisions (3+2,  2+3) and also practicing like this Play two beats, rest beats, while keeping the form constant with walking bass.

Any other ideas, tricks?

7 -- 05/17/2007, 08:37:05 -- #35087
The first three beats of "Take Five" are played like a jazz waltz, the last two are straight.

Seven is often treated as eight with the last beat cut, this gives a "jumpy" feel to it, because it always feels like the "one" is coming in early.

Nine is actually triple triplets (3/4 time with three hits to the beat), in Irish music this metre is known as a slip jig.

Another interesting trick is to play 4/4 time as 3-3-2 (I learned this one from my drum lessons), it puts the emphasis in wierd spots and in so doing creates an "odd time" vibe.

7 -- 05/17/2007, 08:39:43 -- #35087
By 3-3-2, I meant 3 eighths - 3 eighths - 2 eighths.

mozart2b2002 -- 05/17/2007, 14:49:44 -- #35087
And don't forget the basic New Orleans sound/feel is a 3+3+2.

DrJazz -- 06/04/2007, 09:08:10 -- #35087
I had some lessons with Hal Galper years ago, and he suggested playing in 4/4 over 'weird' time signatures. To make this work you have to keep track of where the 'one' coincides when both time signatures are superimposed (the 1/4 note is the same for both).

Example 1: FIVE bars of 4/4 takes up the same amount of time as FOUR bars of 5/4.

Example 2: SEVEN bars of 3/4 takes up the same amount of time as THREE bars of 7/4.

This technique can produce impressive results if used sparingly, but I wouldn't use it ALL the time in an odd-meter tune...

Tim

alhaynes -- 06/05/2007, 09:07:49 -- #35087
Learn "Spiral" by Hiromi.
I became a little worried when some of the "weird" timings started feeling natural . . .

Scot -- 06/05/2007, 09:42:08 -- #35087
Personally, I don't like to subdivide my odd times. I will at first when trying to get them down.  For example, I played a few tunes with Ingrid Jensen once and a lot of her stuff is in odd meters.  Before then I had played odd meters, but not for any length of time.  Yes, I admit, I would turn away from an odd meter and go back to something easier to internalize.

Anyway, I had to figure out how to internalize 7, 5, and other times, and after a couple of days of rehearsing it happened.

So basically, what I look for are "big" subdivisions that span bar lines so that I can feel the groove and it feels even. I still don't like it when it doesn't feel even, but if I open up the feel enough it does.

Hmm, maybe I can notate.

First line is timed out in 5/4, second and third lines are ways I do a "big" subdivision so I can groove in it:

1. | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1
2. | ^   ^   ^ |   ^   ^   | ^   ^   ^ |   ^   ^   | ^
3. | ^       ^         ^         ^         ^       | ^

Some might say I'm cheating or whatever, but I don't really care, it's a method I use to really get into the odd time groove, stretch out over the barlines, and make a solo sound like it's musical instead of being contrived to fit within an odd meter.

Scot -- 06/05/2007, 09:42:34 -- #35087
Woops, let me post the lined up part again with text alignment on:

1. | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1 2 3 4 5 | 1
2. | ^   ^   ^ |   ^   ^   | ^   ^   ^ |   ^   ^   | ^
3. | ^       ^         ^         ^         ^       | ^

DrJazz -- 06/05/2007, 15:01:51 -- #35087
Hi Scot,
I think your method agrees with the one I posted earlier. If I've understood correctly, in your second line you are superimposing 2/4 over the 5/4, which comes back on the 'one' every 2 bars of 5/4. Your third line is superimposing 4/4 over the 5/4, which comes back on the 'one every 4 bars (but this is five bars of 4/4, as I pointed out).
Tim

Scot -- 06/05/2007, 21:49:38 -- #35087
Yes, you're right - I didn't read any of the responses when I posted mine :)  Heh heh, nice to know that I'm on the same wavelength as Hal Galper on this issue, though!

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