LearnJazzPiano.com archives: To school or not to school

BumSmith -- 07/01/2007, 20:37:29 -- #35650

Hey guys and gals, I'm a 22 year old professional musician. I started on guitar when I was 9, began studying piano when I was 18, and have been able to live off of gigs one way or another for the past 3 months. About 2 months ago I was fortunate enough to fall in with a live hip-hop group fronted by a pretty heavy hitter in the industry and I now have the opportunity to start a nationwide tour with the band. For the record, I don't completely dig the music that we're making - I love hip-hop, but most of the musicians (including the band director) aren't the best of players, and I find it frustrating to have to play rock covers as instrumental band showcase tunes and have tunes that I bring to the table shot down because the guys can't handle them (and not giant steps or anything - latin/funk/r&b type stuff.) Anyways, my question is this - I dropped out of school 2 semesters ago, and I really want to go back - my reading still sucks, and I know I could really benefit from a performance degree, but of course, a national tour could be a once in a lifetime deal, right? I'm pretty torn... I know I could go back to school after I get back, but I also know it'll be increasingly difficult to do so. Jazz is my passion, and I really want to become a better player. Whattya think? Mike

Whacky -- 07/01/2007, 20:50:43 -- #35650

I don't see how you would benefit from a performance degree unless you envision a college teaching career. Although it would not hurt to get one, you can certainly become  a great player without it. I don't think I'd pass up a lucrative gig for that.  Just make sure you continue to nurture your own personal musical interests. (I didn't finish my degree or nurture my own personal interests) oh well...just my thoughts:)

Kai -- 07/02/2007, 01:05:56 -- #35650

I agree with Dr Whack's view. Perhaps you could get 'performance counselling' later for areas that you consider necessary. IMHO that would be just as useful to you and maybe you could affored to hire the best then.  You have plenty of time. Carpe diem, as they used to say.  I didn't do my first degree until I was 57.  The opportunity was still there then and the information more relevant.

BumSmith -- 07/02/2007, 16:15:13 -- #35650

Right on fellas - I was planning on quitting the band, but I'ma stick with it on your advice. Thanks so much for responding. Mike

tangman06 -- 07/07/2007, 22:15:46 -- #35650

I know it's different for everyone, but do you guys think college is a good idea for an aspiring musician/music teacher? It seems to me that just going out there and playing a bunch of music would be better than "learning" how to do it in a school. Also, if you think school is a good idea, any suggestions for good music schools?

Jazz+ -- 07/08/2007, 00:33:44 -- #35650

Sight reading is a skill that is up to you to develop on your own, not at school.

Whacky -- 07/08/2007, 10:37:31 -- #35650

School can be a great thing for many reasons, but given the fact that it is very expensive both monetarily and in the amount of personal time required, I think it would be wise to identify the purpose and clarify your goals before investing in it. Teaching is one of the few areas, if not the only one, that would require a degree or degrees.  However, there is a lot to be said for what you can learn and contacts you might make during the process. As for recommending good schools...that of course would depend on your location, budget, goals etc...but when considering making contacts and such (networking) it might be wise to go where a lot of  notable cats (fellas) go

Whacky -- 07/08/2007, 10:38:30 -- #35650

or "gals" - sorry :)

Scot -- 07/08/2007, 10:54:46 -- #35650

Listen, if you want to be a pro musician, go be a pro musician. When you get an opportunity to play, take it.  Doesn't matter what kind of music it is.  The experience will only make you a better jazz musician and your chops will grow by leaps and bounds. School is always going to be there, exciting and unique opportunities are very hard to come by. When I was 20 I dropped out of school because an opportunity to play music in Asia for four months came up.  That 4 months turned into 5 years, and I've never wondered what life would be like had I turned it down to get my degree.  Well, I know for a fact that I wouldn't be as well rounded as a person and musician, that's for sure.

Kai -- 07/09/2007, 01:43:24 -- #35650

Jazz Guy P.  I agree with all of the above advice and one extra piece of information is the following and it only applies to the uk as far as I know: INMHO if you want to WORK as a music TEACHER in the UK, you definitely need, at least, a music Degree. The QUALIFIED music teachers that I have been involved with, may have been ok at music teaching per se, but nearly ALL of them have had little use as JAZZ music teachers. They just ' didn't get it - the swing and feel of jazz'.  They played jazz woodenly and only concentrated on satisfying the appropriate Music Board requirements to pass exams.  The BEST music teachers that I have used have been experienced jazz players. This post may get me into trouble but it is ONLY my experience and intended to add to your information for you to make your decisions.

Whacky -- 07/09/2007, 06:55:02 -- #35650

True here in the US too.  A music degree no more certifies musicianship than an engineering degree.  I've had Phds as instructors that didn't know the first thing about music (how it should feel) - people I would not call to play a gig :)

7 -- 07/09/2007, 23:03:52 -- #35650

Some schools can offer great networking possibilities (Berklee comes immediately to mind). If your goal is to teach at a University or College, you'd better have a degree. You see, you have to buy into the system - meaning that no matter how good a musician you are, they won't hire you if you don't have a degree. The reason for that is that universities don't want people to hear the forbidden truth which is "You can learn all that shit a lot cheaper and with more relevance down in the trenches". If everybody found that dirty little secret out, music conservatories would go out of business. The vast majority of "formally trained" musicians I've played can't play their way out of a wet paper bag. There are some notable exceptions however (as in any field). Go to formal school or go to the school of the real world? In my life, I picked the real world. The tests are much more difficult and failing can cost you your life ...

tangman06 -- 07/09/2007, 23:29:39 -- #35650

Thanks for all your comments, they're really making me think. "You can learn all that shit a lot cheaper and with more relevance down in the trenches" 7, I completely agree with this. And no, I don't want to teach at a school. I am increasingly disliking everything about school (I'm a junior in high school right now). I think the general consensus here is what I wanted to hear- pursue your dreams in the most direct way possible- as Scot said, "if you want to be a pro musician, go be a pro musician." As for high school, is there any reason to finish that? I don't see any real benefits of graduating.

Kai -- 07/10/2007, 01:34:00 -- #35650

"As for high school, is there any reason to finish that? I don't see any real benefits of graduating." That's a totally different question.  I didn't finish school and later on in life decided that I had 'missed out'.  I went back to night school (as it was called then) and it was a lot harder to do the schooling.  Even later on in life I went to college and was sooooooooo glad - not for music but for the whole experience.  It was well worth it, for me that is.  You, yourself, have to decide what to do but, in retrospect and nothing to do with music, I would advise you not to be too hasty in dismissing finishing school while you are young.  You really, do have plenty of time.  Enjoy the journey.

Kai -- 07/10/2007, 01:36:07 -- #35650

I know, I know,  I sound like a parent but that's because I am (and grandparent).  No aplogies here, I've been lucky and the journey was and still is, great.

Whacky -- 07/10/2007, 06:53:08 -- #35650

I second Kai - it's all about the journey - embrace your own:) I sometimes feel regrets about choices I made, but in the long run, those choices made me who I am - so what?  heh heh :)

jazz jasper -- 07/10/2007, 10:55:10 -- #35650

I always say this, but unless you want to teach - school is the biggest waste of time.  Why the hell would anyone want to plunge themselves into debt and start out their career with a huge loan over their heads I don't know!  Id rather have a huge loan to pay my house back, not my school aswell.   People who go to school I believe are wasting their time, all of my peers went to college and now while i earn mega bucks and play with people who are DOING the job, they are stuck in a classroom learning ABOUT the job. Good choice not to waste your time!

jazz jasper -- 07/10/2007, 10:57:36 -- #35650

Unless you wanna teach of course!!!

Scot -- 07/10/2007, 11:12:50 -- #35650

You have to finish highschool.  Not finishing highschool is more of a sign of being a failure, not being able to stick it out. Highschool is so ridiculously easy there's no reason not to get your high school diploma. Obviously you aren't 21 yet which means you can't hang out in clubs with musicians yet.  So, bust your rear end and practice and play as much music as possible, and then when you turn 21 real musician life starts because then you go to the bars and clubs and start networking with pros who have been playing in bars and clubs for their entire lives.   Highschool and college are two totally different things.  College you pay for because you want to be prepared for something later in life.  A doctor needs to know where you cut you up, an accountant needs to know how to add, a lawyer needs to know how to read those giant books.   A musician needs to know how to play music and college isn't always going to help in this area, so maybe you don't need to go.  But highschool, never drop out of high school. It's a right of passage into adulthood, into the real world, and not doing it is just plain stupid.

marksdg -- 07/10/2007, 11:14:58 -- #35650

jazz guy, Have you considered asking your parents if you could homeschool the last year of high-school?  I am just thinking about this as a homeschooling parent who knows many high-schoolers who did homeschool just the last year or two of high school.  You could propose to your parents your own course of study for the year (just a list of books to read) on various subjects that interest you, and register officially with the state.   The advantage of this option is that you can always tell people honestly that you finished high-school and didn't drop out, and it would free up enormous amounts of time and emotional energy to put into your music instead of classes.

Whacky -- 07/10/2007, 11:37:38 -- #35650

I thought we were talking to BumSmith who is 22... jazz guy, I can't think of a good reason to quit high school.  Can you? The homeschool option is a good one.  There is also a GED - but what the heck?  I did no homework and still graduated high school:) - met some guys there too, that went on to be pro players - ya never know...The Fray met in high school too - those boys are hauling in some jack:)

Paul -- 07/18/2007, 07:03:27 -- #35650

Yeah, everyone should at least finish high school. In the long run I don't think it matters if you have a GED ,do home school or traditional school. Persoanally high school helped my playing a whole lot. Between all the school bands/orchestra and musicals, I got some good experiance. My school had a good music program that I din't fully appreciate at the time.... Another thought regarding music as a career: It's probably a good idea to develop some interests and skills outside of music. I personally know at least ten guys between the ages 30-50's that still live with their parents mainly because that can't survive (pay rent, car payments....) playing jazz a few nights a week.

GS_Jon -- 07/18/2007, 07:20:51 -- #35650

Okay I can't resist: Q: What's the difference between a jazz musician and a large pizza? A: A large pizza can feed a family of four.

Whacky -- 07/18/2007, 08:25:40 -- #35650

Yeah...I've probably said it before, but I made my living for over 30 years (raising a family of three kids and two pooches)by playing gigs.  (My wife is also a singer) Only a small portion of those gigs were jazz though...I did everything from shows, to recordings, weddings, mitzvahs, rock, country, dixieland, you name it, I did it..."and did it my......way" heh heh I was told that the hottest jazz records sell on average around 8500 copies - not including folks like Diana Krall, etc... Bottom line, if you're happy bouncing around being a gig meister, go for it, but try to balance things with new things and music you really love. (I hope I never have to play Satan Doll, Twist & Shout, etc again:)

Whacky -- 07/18/2007, 08:27:01 -- #35650

well...not really...it's up to me to breath new life int those tunes I've played millions of times...part of being a gig meister:)

CynBad -- 07/18/2007, 09:01:01 -- #35650

Satan Doll That was a freudian slip if ever I've seen one.

Whacky -- 07/18/2007, 11:22:00 -- #35650

lol - freudian typo - I remember thinking that looked weird..didn't I once use illicit instead of elicit?

CynBad -- 07/18/2007, 12:52:54 -- #35650

Yes, you did!

jazz jasper -- 07/18/2007, 17:23:36 -- #35650

Dr.Whacks advice is so true, if id listened to my peers and friends at high school, sure id be hanging out with themand probably having fun, but I would't be earning the money im earning and wouldn't have just got my own flat, brand new car and everything else a 19 year old could ever dream of having!!!  More importantly I wouldn't know the amazing pro's that I know that - like Dr.Whack - have been playing pro for 30 years.  They are the guys to learn from, they know whats what, I have a huge ammount of respect for them...  and they never went to college either!!   Sure im playing in the theatre on musicals and its very dull and boring, BUT I can afford to enjoy a quick jazz gig because I know that if i have a night off to do it I don't need to rely on getting another jazz gig so i can eat the following day!   I suppose it comes down to whether you want to earn money as a musician or struggle trying to get from one day to the next as a jazz musician/classical musician etc.

dalty52 -- 07/18/2007, 19:42:36 -- #35650

One thing to remember is that ANY college degree can only help when getting a job.  Of course you don't NEED to go to college to make it in music, however, a college degree can makes you more marketable across the board.  What happens if you don't go to school, and you end up deciding against music as a career?  It will definitely be a lot harder to get other types of jobs without some sort of degree.  I landed a web development job in NYC with my music degree.......sure, I had a little portfolio of web stuff, but my boss actually told me that the music degree sealed the deal, because he knows that musicians make good programmers, and a degree shows that you have the ability to follow through with something major.  Good hiring managers usually know that musicians have many transferrable skills.   So, the thing is......you go to school make a lot of connections, play great music, and learn from good teachers(we hope) while obtaining something really solid on your resume that makes you a stronger candidate if you ever need a backup job.  The main thing to remember is that you still want to gig professionaly while you are in college.  Nothing beats real gigging experience.  I would advise not to go into a lot of debt over it, but I think it's worth a little debt to have a degree.  Heck, it's not a bad idea to get a degree in something else and while you are not studying, shed and play gigs.  My two cents.

CynBad -- 07/19/2007, 11:20:31 -- #35650

Agree with Dalty on the degree thing.  My B.Mus. degree has helped me get several jobs that had NOTHING to do with music. It also gets me into graduate degree programs that have nothing to do with music.

Whacky -- 07/19/2007, 12:14:22 -- #35650

Yeah - I kinda feel like a dingdong not having one....(wait a minute, I am  dingdong:)

CynBad -- 07/19/2007, 12:46:37 -- #35650

Yeah, but Dr. Whack, you didn't really need one, did you? I mean, it doesn't hurt, but if you're going to be a pro musician, a degree doesn't really matter... Do you regret not having a degree?  Does it hold you back from anything?

jazz jasper -- 07/19/2007, 16:18:27 -- #35650

I think that if you only want to do music you should just get on and do it,but if your unsure about wether you can really make it and if you want to do it for the rest of your life, you should go to college.  Depends if you feel strongly enough about commiting to music for the rest of your life.

Whacky -- 07/19/2007, 16:25:38 -- #35650

Sure I didn't need one to play, but now that I'm kinda burned out on the whole gig scene, I don't have too many options other than teaching privately - which I like, but... Also, I think the general population respects people with degrees more so than those of us who don't have em. I was finished with everything except a semester of student teaching. I took off the last semester to do a European tour.  When I got back, I just couldn't bring myself to do the student teaching - I guess I kinda regret it since I was so close...My main goal having been mainly a pop/jazz/show pianist, was to play a classical senior recital, which I did do..so...I don't regret too much It's probably a good idea to get a degree of some kind though, if you have the time and money.

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