| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Not meant to be? | |
| ggreen -- 07/11/2007, 16:16:04 -- #35807 | |
| I"ve tried to play jazz music time and time again throughout my life and simply cannot improvise. Its almost as though I have no inner-voice. i just can't think of things and translate them to the piano. Is this something everyone struggles with? Is improvising something I'm just incapable of doing? I always thought with enough practise I could do anything, but now I have doubts. background: I took classical for years so I have technique, I studied a TON of theory so I know all the scales/chords/substitutions etc. I'm a huge fan and listen to a lot of Monk, Medeski, Chick, Bill Evans, Wynton Kelly, etc. I even work through transcriptions of charlie parker, oscar peterson, etc I sit down at the piano, chords fly by and.... nothing. I can't put coherent ideas down even when I think of what to play. Do I need piano therapist? Has anyone gone through this? Am I just not a jazz player :( | |
| jazz jasper -- 07/11/2007, 17:21:12 -- #35807 | |
| Why don't you upload some of your improvising and let other people be the judge of whether you can improvise, if you know all the theory and listen to all the greats and even transcribe, you should be able to improvise something slightly good. Maybe you feel you are incapable of improvising to a standard that you feel is acceptable but to others may sound great. I think that everyone goes through phases of depression feeling like they can't play well enough, only the other month I got over the weeks of feeling uninspired and like I was a usless jazz player, but I think by just playing through it you will come out the other side a much better player, we all have times when we feel that were no good. All I can say is chin up, be positive and play through it, you WILL come out of the otherside. In the mean time, I suggest you upload some of your improvising to this site and maybe let other people tell you if you have an inner voice, you may be suprised! | |
| Paul -- 07/11/2007, 17:32:43 -- #35807 | |
| Your probably not half as bad as you think you are. I have the same issues that you do. I really think I suck, yet people call me to play on paying gigs all the time. Here's some random seguestions from someone that doesn't have years of classical and theory training and good technique .... (although I wish I did) 1. play with lots of people- good musicians, bad musicians. You'll learn lots from both... 2. Record your sessions with your band mates, your practice sessions with play along tracks (Abersold, midi files). Listen and try to analize what you need to do to sound better The wierd thing about recording yourself is sometimes you sound nothing like you thought you did. A few weeks ago a played a gig and the ussual drummer wasn't there. The new drummer counted all the tunes at radically different tempos than we were used to. It was totally messing with my head and I thought I sounded like shit. But I listened to the tape a week latter and it wasn't as bad as I thought. 3. If you have the guts (I don't) post your recording here or on youtube or wherever. Sometimes the best advice you can get comes froms strangers. Friends, family, band mates, teachers sometimes can't really tell you what your playing lacks because of the personal relationship that exits. 4. Take jazz lessons if you can afford it and/or go to a jazz camp. 5. Sing along with the recording you like. Infact today I was a flight from Mexico City to Dallas Tx and I learned to sing (sofly and mentally) Miles solo on All Blues. Latter I'll try to play it on the piano. 6. Try to have a very systematic practice session. I can give more details on mine if you're interested..... 7. Read some books like Efortless Matery, The Inner Game, Think in Jazz I hope these ideas help. I'm sure the other cats here can get you moving in the right direction. | |
| superjames -- 07/11/2007, 19:12:40 -- #35807 | |
| Try and get into the blues scale - its the easiest way to start improvising in my opinion. | |
| jmkarns -- 07/11/2007, 20:35:53 -- #35807 | |
| Like Miles said; "It takes a long time to find your voice." | |
| Bud -- 07/11/2007, 21:04:51 -- #35807 | |
| ggreen, I abandonned the idea of playing jazz when I was 18 (because of egos of those guys..) and decided to cover Rock and make money. Now, I'm 48 and decided to dig into jazz two years ago... I am amazed how I felt like you (''I will never be able to improvise'') and how I can really have fun today because I have just did it. Trials and errors. Noodle with the scales first, but go for a melodic line after. Of course, listen and transcribe! Don't give up! | |
| flapjack -- 07/12/2007, 02:06:43 -- #35807 | |
| There is certainly a large variance in aptitude but I believe almost anyone can learn to improvise. If someone asked you to make up a brief story could you do that easily? It would probably help if they said to make up a short scenario about a red car, a flat tire etc... I have found that people can almost always be creative if they limit choices from the infinite to the more specific. Start simple and don't expect to sound like a legendary jazz pianist every time you practice improvising. Choose a series of changes that you are comfortable with and like. (Pay at least as much attention to the rhythm and groove as the note choices) Try starting with just a few notes in a short repetitive phrase and play through the changes while adjusting the phrase as little as possible to fit with the changing harmony. Experiment, change the timing, lengthen the phrases, start on a different note, alter the harmony, etc etc... Have Fun! Build your improvising fluency through small ideas that are usable and personal to you. If you practice in a way that internalizes these small ideas they will grow into a large reservoir of musical expression that will be accessible to you when you improvise. Or you could do what a lot of us do and try to "crowbar-in" fancy licks that you stole from someone else. ;) | |
| GS_Jon -- 07/12/2007, 05:53:57 -- #35807 | |
| Not that I really yet have a handle on improvising, but the most gratifying improvement I ever made was when I finally took my teacher's advice and began learning fifteen Charlie Christian solos. The first step is to listen closely to one solo per week and learn it well enough to sing with the recording, with all of the nuances and feeling of the original recording. The second step begins after fifteen weeks: go back to the first solo and practice it well enough that you can sing it without the recording. This is very important and it really imbeds the language deep within your mind. After you can sing all of the solos without the aid of the recording, you are ready for the third step: put the solos on the piano. Do not write them down because then you won't have to continually listen and practice. After 45 weeks you'll have all of the solos under your fingers. This method takes a long time, is tedious, and it's really tempting to skip step 2 where you learn to sing without the recording. Fortunately, I found that at each step along the way my improvised phrasing became more interesting as I slowly absorbed the material. You could probably choose any of the jazz giants with a similar result: Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Wes Mongtomery, Dizzie Gillespie, Bud Powell, etc. | |
| ggreen -- 07/12/2007, 06:45:56 -- #35807 | |
| wow, this is amazing. the support alone from this post is enough to motivate me back to the piano. i'll definately start recording myself and maybe gain a new perspective on what i currently can do. if i get brave enough maybe i'll post something on here for a critique. thanks for all the advice, i'll check back if anyone wants to add anything | |
| kaon99 -- 07/12/2007, 06:59:06 -- #35807 | |
| Dear ggreen, I am in your boat regarding improvising. Here is an approach that is working for me: First a quote from Chapter 1 of Forward Motion by Hal Galper: "Learn how to play a melody before you do all them fancy embellishments," Joe "King" Oliver to Louis Armstrong. I am working on using the chord changes of ballads and making up simple alternate melodies to go with them. I start using chord tones, especially guide tones (3rd and 7th). Since my note pool is consonant and so limited, it is easy to get a decent sound right away. After a short while my ear demands some connecting notes between the chord tones. I find that the more I do this the more I hear in my head, which is what I am shooting for. As things progress, I begin to put in more of "them fancy embellishments." Without a foundation in melody, my improvising sounds like sh..t, really. For me, the concept of first creating a melody has been vital to a good sound. Maybe it will work for you too. Peace. - Ken | |
| Paul -- 07/12/2007, 07:18:36 -- #35807 | |
| GS Jon, I really like the approach that you outline. I never checked out Charlie Chritian but I'm going to pick up some of his CD's today. Do you recommend any spefic tunes or albums? Thanks! | |
| Kai -- 07/12/2007, 07:27:06 -- #35807 | |
| IN ADDITION TO all the good advice you have been given here, I'd like to let you know of something that spurred me on when I was a bit desolate about my improv attempts. I listened A LOT to other work and particularly took note of the placement of the notes within the phrases (especially Bill Evans Bridge of Softly in a Morning Sunrise). You see I can't play 8 and 16 notes at a rate of knots so needed to find another way... I then recorded the chord changes in a tune, learned the melody well and trying NOT to use the blues scale all the time, tried messing around with the 1 3 5 and 6 notes in my improv. Amazingly it didn't sound as bad as previously. It's still not wonderful but it IS improving. Hope it helps. | |
| ggreen -- 07/12/2007, 08:41:34 -- #35807 | |
| thanks for the great advice everyone! i'd like to start doing GS Jon's plan of really digging into 15 tunes and learning them in the way you suggest. there is such a wealth of charlie christian music, transcriptions, analysis out there, its hard to know where to begin. would you recommend sticking to his stuff to get deep into his style or maybe round out the song selections with some monk, miles, evans, etc. Any songs/musicians you could recommend would be greatly appreciated! | |
| GS_Jon -- 07/12/2007, 10:36:53 -- #35807 | |
| If you're going to do this, stick with one player and go deep. You can always pick someone else during the following 45 weeks. I'd only use the transcriptions and analyses as a check to be sure you caught everything. The real benefit here is listening and absorbing. Good luck you'll have to let us know how it goes. | |
| tangman06 -- 07/12/2007, 10:51:27 -- #35807 | |
| ggreen- why not transcribe and analyze a pianist instead of a guitarist? | |
| smg -- 07/12/2007, 11:27:19 -- #35807 | |
| Here's a file I uploaded a while back that attempts to deal with this type of thing;check it out and let me know if it helps- http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?action=files&sub=file_details&id=1075846998 | |
| Scot -- 07/12/2007, 14:21:34 -- #35807 | |
| Jazz is a language, and if you don't practice conversation, you can't ever learn a new language, and the way to learn conversation is by imitation. It's rather quite easy to get good at improvisation. You just have to know the language which means you have to transcribe recordings. Find your favorite Evans, Peterson, or whatever, recording and then learn what they are playing on the piano, note for note. It's not easy, but it's the rock bottom most solid way to become a great player. | |
| Paul -- 07/12/2007, 16:42:53 -- #35807 | |
| guys- how important is it to transcribe piano players? I'm a pianist, but for some reason I'm more interested in studying guitar and trumpet solos. I had a teacher that insisted I only transribed pianists. He would say after I transcribed at least 50 piano solos I could start stuying others horn solos. But it's really cool playing unison lines on piano with a horn or guitar.... | |
| DrJazz -- 07/12/2007, 19:03:52 -- #35807 | |
| The advantage of transcribing trumpet and sax players is that they can only play single lines, which makes the task easier, no left hand chords to worry about, no double notes or block chords in the right hand. To some extent guitar solos are similar as most guitarists improvise in single lines for the most part, with only the occasional chord thrown in.. The advantage of transcribing piano solos is that you KNOW what you're hearing CAN be played on piano (unless you're transcribing Bud Powell - I'm convinced he was superhuman!) Sometimes with sax solos etc (especially Charlie Parker) it's impossible to finger the lines comfortably on piano, PLUS they were conceived in a different key (since trumpet and sax are transposing instruments). This can have a positive effect, though, if it leads you to play lines you wouldn't have thought of playing on the piano. The disadvantage of transcribing piano solos is that it is hard to hear all the notes when chords are played, especially LH chords. But at the end of the day that's what you should be aiming for! Single note solos are just the beginning! | |
| Paul -- 07/12/2007, 20:05:03 -- #35807 | |
| I guess I like transcribing horn/guitar solos is because I can sing them easier. Also I always make up my own left hand parts- mostly rootless voice type chords. But your right Dr. Jazz, there all sorts of stuff that horn players do that we can't... But it's fun to try! | |
| sid -- 07/13/2007, 02:01:11 -- #35807 | |
| Truly it is written "The best is the enemy of the good". Even perfectly competent working jazz musicians feel inadequate when they listen to the Gods, like Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, even Brad Meldhau (though I don't like him). So for learning purposes why not listen to players whose skills might be within reach. If you go to a gig by a local band, at the end of the evening there's often a chance to buy their lovingly-produced demo album. I usually make a point of doing this (if only for reasons of solidarity with the underclass) and have learned quite a bit from listening to how the journeymen go about their business. If you must aim for the international stars, try those with a slimmed-down style like Count Basie or John Lewis. The idea of looking at guitarists like Charlie Christian is also a good one. Jim Hall's another name. I've a feeling more people are lost to jazz through scary early encounters with Art Tatum etc than through any lack of intrinsic ability. sid | |
| Whacky -- 07/13/2007, 08:00:52 -- #35807 | |
| First of all, try to ask all your feelings of self doubt and criticism to sit down beside you and watch the show with you. Just let yourself play and experiment - some of it will sound good and some of it won't - so what? Do you really expect to instantly sound like a legend who has spent his/her entire life doing this? The people I admire are the ones who have their own voice - you gotta find and develop yours...and it takes time - a lifetime actually Secondly, start simple. Give your self some guidelines - like say, a 12-bar blues and use only two notes of the "blues scale" or minor pentatonic. How creative can you be with those two notes? Try different combinations of rhythms and registers, etc...if/when you become bored, add a note or two at a time until you're comfortable with the whole scale. It's all about taking baby steps and feeling comfortable in your own skin. The trick is to learn from others without comparing - just play. Thirdly, don't look for external criticism or compliments...just deal with yourself and enjoy the process ~groove on:) | |
| CynBad -- 07/15/2007, 20:34:16 -- #35807 | |
| Anyone can learn to improvise. Just ask Jamey Aebersold. | |
| Paul -- 07/16/2007, 05:26:33 -- #35807 | |
| Question for GS-Jon: did you learn all the solos chorous or just one? CynBad- did you get to go to JA camp. How'd it go? | |
| GS_Jon -- 07/16/2007, 07:41:49 -- #35807 | |
| I picked short solos (1 or 2 choruses) and learned them in their entirety. The nice thing about C Christian and Lester Young (Basie-era) is that most of their solos are extremely short. | |
| Paul -- 07/16/2007, 08:00:05 -- #35807 | |
| Cool... I'm really excited about using your system. Thanks for sharing it! Any C Christian tracks or CD recomendations? | |
| CynBad -- 07/16/2007, 09:09:48 -- #35807 | |
| Paul - yes, I just got back from the Aebersold workshop. It was great -- incredibly busy, barely had time to breathe. Where I was placed was plenty challenging for me. I learned a lot, really stretched, and was really inspired. I've now got a much more focused practice routine to try. | |
| Paul -- 07/16/2007, 09:32:02 -- #35807 | |
| I went three years ago and would love to go back... Phil D'Greg totally changed my practice routine. | |
| GS_Jon -- 07/16/2007, 12:44:56 -- #35807 | |
| I used these two albums: Charlie Christian & Benny Goodman Sextet 1939-1941 The Genius of the Electric Guitar Good luck. You'll have to let me know how it goes in 45 weeks! | |
| t189981 -- 07/24/2007, 10:53:40 -- #35807 | |
| Thanks for everybody's advice.But I get a question. I transcribe all the LH, RH from Bud Powell's "buzzy",and I went play inner sound, only melody line(RH)I can improv it out;but I can't think LH's chord sound... So now, should I practice all LH and understand until I could hear LH's method?(ie. Practice until I can hear all the view include melody chord bass move just like solo piano?) Or everybody can give me better advice? Thanks. John | |
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