LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Is this too perfect?!

jazz jasper -- 09/14/2007, 18:34:07 -- #37079

Check out these guys, this is just too perfect.  This is a one take live recording.  I know it should go in the video section, but are these guys TOO perfect?  Like robots... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doaMg5c8Xig

Mike -- 09/14/2007, 18:49:33 -- #37079

i know what u mean but....   I listen like you did and hear everything sounds at first correct , yet it does not sound good. So what is wrong..... We come to differen conclusions... You conclude it is too perfect. I conclude it does not swing very well and there is not a good pocket.  Everyone is leaned over in this pocket,  no one is holding it back .... no one is able too... to much weight on top for the Rhythm section to hold it back so it is leaning forward and hence no pocket at all.   Still it is not incorrect it just not a  likable swing grove.  At least not to me.  If I were the band leader.  I would after that cut say we gotta work on that groove and create a pocket somehow.  That is a lot harder to do than correcting someone who is playing a wrong note.  But it might be as simple as making sure the Rhythm section is holding back a little and reminding the horn players to listen  to the rhythm section while they are flying thru those eigth notes.  The horn players dont seem to be feeling the back beat either.  If everyone is not feeling two and four while the play this type of grove that happens in this video can occur.... not a very good swing

antiJV -- 09/14/2007, 18:56:26 -- #37079

Intresting take...  I sort of agree that it doesn't swing too well, but its just how slick it all is.

antiJV -- 09/14/2007, 19:02:24 -- #37079

Hmmm, I see what you mean about it not swinging, but it is so slick and tight, it almost is too tight.

Mike -- 09/14/2007, 19:13:52 -- #37079

its not really so much that it does not swing as the type of swing and that there is no pocket.

jmkarns -- 09/14/2007, 20:18:11 -- #37079

Slick in the style that many groups were in the 80's.  I don't have a date on this set but it reminds me of that whole Grusin - Ritenour era.  Always enjoy hearing Mr. Burton.

Mike -- 09/15/2007, 01:53:45 -- #37079

I Still say u guys are missin the point.  Ti say some of the Grusin stuff or the Ritenour erq  stuffwaz too perfect might be a valid critique in the end.  But t9 group this cut along with that stuff is being way to complementary.  Although the Grusin and Ritenour stuff may have been overly polished those guys now how to create a pocket even with large ensembles.  These guys fail at the most important task before us with any musical undertaking making it a pretty lame version of the tune in the final anaysis.

Mike -- 09/15/2007, 01:54:58 -- #37079

not too perfect at all...It has at leas one huge fault.

Scot -- 09/18/2007, 12:00:27 -- #37079

What's the drummer doing hitting hard on 3 all the time during the head? These guys are all great players, but one of the things I notice about all star bands, all star sports teams, all star anything is that everyone wants to be a soloist and very few people know how to drop their ego in the box at the door. I don't have any kind of final feeling about the tune, I like Donna Lee, always have, and the clarinet sort of saves it for me, he was playing some nice stuff. I don't like the electric bass and the funky drums, though, not for what they are trying to get across.

jazz jasper -- 09/18/2007, 16:18:56 -- #37079

Okay, I do agree Scot, what about this one... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMPZ75wQOt0 Mike this is aimed at you, does this swing to your satisfaction.

jazz jasper -- 09/18/2007, 16:20:01 -- #37079

This is a bit of a joke, i just rememberd the ending, and is sums up what Scot says about them all wanting to be the star!!!!  Watch and see!!

jmkarns -- 09/18/2007, 19:07:43 -- #37079

I'm not going to talk down the talent.  They're ALL STARS what do you expect!

Jazz+ -- 09/18/2007, 21:37:48 -- #37079

It's very good, they are swinging and grooving in the modern big band way. You guys must have some stereo types about what you expect and insist swing and groove must be according to your backgrounds. The acoustic bass (not electric) was played by John Patitucci and the drummer is Dave Weckl. Both alumni of Chick Corea's Akoustic Band http://www.vervemusicgroup.com/product.aspx?ob=prd&src=list&pid=9242

Jazz+ -- 09/18/2007, 22:11:07 -- #37079

Having said that these guys in the next clip swing in a nicer way at tempo 310. These are straight ahead bebop masters, not fusion players like Weckl (Donna Lee was at 264) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYUcLRud50 Johnny Griffin - tenor sax Kenny Washington - drum Ray Drummond - bass Ronnie Mathews - piano This clip is around 1978-1980. This same quartet can be heard on the great album titled "Return Of The Griffin". This band was the combo that played the first American tour Griffin did at that time in fifteen years after living in France.

Jazz+ -- 09/18/2007, 22:17:51 -- #37079

Here's Johnny Griffin and Art Taylor swinging at tempo 340 ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVBBS3G0Do

Jazz+ -- 09/18/2007, 22:18:29 -- #37079

More Donna Lees :( Jaco Pastorius' band plays Donna Lee http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADrN-y8peKM Gusztáv Csík - piano Aladár Pege - double bass Géza Lakatos Pecek - drums http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqwik_wdLa4 Joe Pass & NHOP tempo 300 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI-1sq5dFD4 Walter Bishop Jr. - piano, Akira Tana - drums http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w33GAWi5UmQ Bireli Legrene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsU_3x-X7tM&mode=related&search=

jazz jasper -- 09/19/2007, 20:07:36 -- #37079

Ive just bought and listened to the whole album, and its amazing!  Despite what most people have said I think these guys are incredible!  The album is unbelivable, just great arrangments.  Best album ive bought for a while!!!

Jazz+ -- 09/20/2007, 01:55:41 -- #37079

Yes, it is a good band.

Mike -- 09/20/2007, 15:20:41 -- #37079

In answer to Jazz jasper; i do think the video you posted swings. But It was not my complaint about the first video.  i idid not say the first video did not swing  i said there is no pocket... There is a huge difference between the two. if you do not know what it is you should learn.

jazz jasper -- 09/20/2007, 16:05:20 -- #37079

Don't patronise me Mike.  I never acused you of saying it didn't swing, I said 'does the following track swing to YOUR satisfaction', and may i quote you... ' If everyone is not feeling two and four while the play this type of grove that happens in this video can occur.... not a very good swing' By the way you sound a bit drunk in those posts!!  ;) Also I have never heard the term pocket, i have heard the phrase in the pocket, but that may be because Im British and your american, just in the same way that you use quater notes and we use the word crotchets, maybe there is a different word over here for it.   One thing im sure that everyone can agree on is that these guys are all stars and they are very very good. While were on the subject of pockets, can anyone else except mike tell me what a pocket is, im dying to know what it means or what the British equivalent is!!

Jazz+ -- 09/20/2007, 16:05:59 -- #37079

More from the same drummer Dave Weckl and bass player John Patitucci playing with Chick Corea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BfaIKgQI0M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ8mb9_gyRo

Mike -- 09/20/2007, 16:56:38 -- #37079

jasper I took the time to respond to your question honestly and you respond with this hostility.  I have not had a drink in six years but that is not your business.  Maybe you should not ask specific people specific questions if you can only respond civily to answers that you want to hear.

jazz jasper -- 09/20/2007, 17:19:27 -- #37079

There's no hostility I am very grateful for your comments and value your opinion and actually got the whole of the band im playing for this show im on, talking about what you thought and what I thought and it actually brightened up what was going to be a boring evening.   If you think i should know the difference between a pocket and a swing then tell me!! By the way i don't drink either and also make typing errors, I was just making a jokey comment!!   Japser  (lol!)

Jazz+ -- 09/20/2007, 20:56:58 -- #37079

Swing to me is mostly a result of the way the ratios between the eighth notes are played in addition to the accents of "+" and other various syncopations. This is all varies, for example they found that Bill Evans played to eighth notes in a row with the same swing ratios. The "pocket" in my mind is where each player chooses to play (lay) consistently in respect to the overall pulse. Typically, I hear the great bass players like Ray Brown walking steadily in front of the pulse, the drummer on top of the pulse, and the soloist like Miles Davis behind the pulse. Of course the "pocket" positions vary among players and rhythm sections and is a big part of why each classic rhythm section sounds a little different.

Jazz+ -- 09/20/2007, 20:58:24 -- #37079

typo correction: "This is all varies, for example they found that Bill Evans rarely played two eighth notes in a row with the same swing ratios."

Jazz+ -- 09/20/2007, 21:03:16 -- #37079

So, you can have front side pockets, on top of it pockets, and backside pockets. All in reference to a pulse. Since good bass players usually play in the front pocket, they are leading,  they are the ones who really "lay down" or establish the time (pulse, drive, etc).

Jazz+ -- 09/20/2007, 21:10:53 -- #37079

Add in the use of rubato to the phenomena of pockets and the player(s) gets additional dramatic or expressive effects. Erroll Garner comes to mind, he would be soloing way behind the pulse and then speed up to being right on top of the pulse, of course it was intentional and for dramatic effect. For example you can often see in transcriptions of jazz solos  that certain phrases are marked "layed back" or "pushed."

Jazz+ -- 09/20/2007, 21:17:03 -- #37079

Some players with "driving" or "on top of it" pockets are Oscar Peterson, Monty Alexander, Gene Harris, and Chick Corea. Some players that often play in more relaxed or "laid back" pockets are Bill Evans, John Lewis, Red Garland and Herbie Hancock.

Jazz+ -- 09/28/2007, 20:47:36 -- #37079

OK, it's too perfect.

Bud -- 09/28/2007, 22:16:06 -- #37079

I did a lot of midi covers rock pieces. Quantizing everything (drums, bass, keyboards, guitars...) at sixteenth note did the job. I realized that you can't quantized a jazz piece (even with the "jazz feel" that some sequencers can provide). Jazz is "controlled imperfections". IMHO

Jazz+ -- 09/29/2007, 10:20:34 -- #37079

I worked for years as a midi composer and realized to make it sound good that I could only quantize the kick drum and maybe the bass, but never at 100% quantize.

Jazz+ -- 09/29/2007, 10:25:22 -- #37079

Jazz does not lend itself to computer music production.

Jazz+ -- 09/29/2007, 10:26:01 -- #37079

Even smooth jazz has moved away from programmed tracks.

jazzwee -- 09/30/2007, 22:08:29 -- #37079

When there's 3,4,5,6 or 7, etc. of you playing the melody simultaneously, imperfections become impossible. Differences in swing beats will stick out like a sore thumb. It's hard enough with different instruments. But with multiple horns, how could you possibly have different pockets? You know how these same guys sound in Trio and quartets. They know what they're doing. Whether you like it or not is another story. I realize that too much evenness starts to sound like Benny Goodman, et al. during the pre-Bebop period. Those big bands had a large ensemble of horn players so the issue is the same.

Jazz+ -- 09/30/2007, 22:52:26 -- #37079

I don't think we were talking about the individual horn players playing in different pockets, they need to all be in the same pocket as a unified section. I think the various pockets are between the bass, drums, and the overall horn section as a whole.

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