LearnJazzPiano.com archives: dom7#5
tomwrush -- 05/01/2004, 08:57:43 -- #4019
What are some ways to create variations on this chord for me to practice? Using this chord in particular as a basis for single note lines. What are some ways to make different variations on it? I know this question goes a little deeper to a fundamental level, so I'm looking for little nuggets of advice I can apply to all the cool harmonic things I come across.
thanks,
tom

albetan -- 05/01/2004, 09:30:21 -- #4020
Hi Tom:
Your dom7#5 is a cool chord.
As a basis for single note lines you must use whole tone scale:
C7#5:  C  D  E  F#  G#  A#  C.

Voicings:
Bass C           Chord:   E  G#  Bb           G#  Bb  C  E
         Add 9:           E  G#  Bb  D        G#  Bb  D  E      
         Ad #11           E  G#  Bb  D  F#    G#  Bb  D  E  F#

albetan -- 05/01/2004, 09:31:01 -- #4021
Hi Tom:
Your dom7#5 is a cool chord.
As a basis for single note lines you must use whole tone scale:
C7#5:  C  D  E  F#  G#  A#  C.

Voicings:
Bass C           Chord:   E  G#  Bb           G#  Bb  C  E
         Add 9:           E  G#  Bb  D        G#  Bb  D  E      
         Ad #11           E  G#  Bb  D  F#    G#  Bb  D  E  F#

smg -- 05/01/2004, 11:39:04 -- #4023
Your best bet for getting next to this in a way that will be applicable to 2004-specific-improvising is to go back 40 yrs and thoroughly analyze the original use of this style of using extended vamps within the tonal area implied by the root of  what are more often than not "structures" of various voicing shapes over a fixed root;these structures are  built from the notes of the whole-tone scale and use the patterns of superimposed-root movement based on the implied "tonic"i.e. this concept is now based on thinking of this as we would a "mode" l;ike Dorian,Phyrygian,etc.....
The composition by the group inveolved is alternately heard on 2 compsitions I have mostly learnd about this s--t from-One  up,one down or "Sunship" although many of his later "recitative" stuff used this as well...the recording and album I recommend are the Impulse reissue series,it might the one where Roy Haynes is on drums..but those versions of One up.." are the definitive s--t...

This gets into something I'm presently dealing with..seeing if I can work out a way of posting written manuscript stuff..I have both McCoy and JC written out from this version  ......some of the hippest lines you'll ever see--this was mentioned before in a thread sid thomas starting asking about voicings for the 7#9.........

comrade c -- 05/02/2004, 22:03:19 -- #4071
the #5 (or dim6 chord) is the basis for notes of Barry harris' teachings for improvisation.  He looks at everything from this dim6 chord perspective.  

There's an url in the links section I posted for the howardrees jazz workshops with barry harris that you might want to check out.  He has some free lessons there from Barry harris' teachings that they worked on together.

just found the link:

http://jazzworkshops.com/home.html

gsandberg -- 05/03/2004, 04:41:10 -- #4079
I thought Mr Harris based his concept on the dim 7 chord but seeing it as a rootless dominant b9 chord...? Charlie parker used lots of that stuff so I´m not sure Mr Harris invented the concept, maybe developed it... This #5 chord is an augmented chord..

gsandberg -- 05/03/2004, 04:50:47 -- #4081
I thought Mr Harris based his concept on the dim 7 chord but seeing it as a rootless dominant b9 chord...? Charlie parker used lots of that stuff so I´m not sure Mr Harris invented the concept, maybe developed it... This #5 chord is an augmented chord..

smg -- 05/03/2004, 08:22:46 -- #4089
I noticed I left out some important info from what I posted-
1.The group I'm talking about is the classic Coltrane quartet...
2.My description of what's going on might be a litle hard-to-understand.Basically,taking a whole-tone scale with a fixed root,you use that root like you would a modal root and superimpose "structures"
over it formed by using the notes of the scale,also you move from one "superimposed strucuture" to the next following patterns of root movement based on the scale.Here's an example-
root-E
"structures" and movement-G#CEF#Bb to CF#BbD to DG#BbD to EF#BbD to.....
(you'll notice that,if you were to name the voicings individually,you'd have G#dom7#5(add9)Cdom7#11(no3no5),D??,and Edom7(add 9 and #11),all of these over the root though just define the concept I'm talking about.......)

smg -- 05/03/2004, 08:24:53 -- #4090
If you take those voicings and play them as lines,that might show you the interrelationship you're looking for,also,take a look at any augmented/whole tone lines here-

smg -- 05/03/2004, 08:31:21 -- #4091
http://www.jazz-sax.com/patterns/
check these 3-Dave Liebman,Mike Brecker,Jerry Bergonzi..these three top sax players are also excellent pianists and use melodic concepts related to the subject of this thread in many situations,it being one of  the staples of a contemporary approach to the dom7....

comrade c -- 05/05/2004, 10:46:33 -- #4148
gsandberg. my understanding of barry harris' teachings are that you can use Xdim6 scale as a foundation for all chords.  Or some type of inversion.

Lets use Cdim6 scale as an example:
you can think of these chords as countless other different chords (inverted, altered), but essentially they come from the same Cdim6 scale.  Thinking in this new way lets you move free-er both horizontally and vertically.

C E G A    [eg: c6 or a-]
D F Ab B   [eg: B-(b5)]
E G A C     [Am C6]
F Ab B D    
G A C E
Ab B D F
A C E G
B D F Ab
C E G A

smg -- 05/17/2004, 15:01:02 -- #4358
tomwrush-where you been at,man?

Here's something I was fooling around with over the weekend that I realized is a good way to practice this stuff and figure out what's really going on with it re-using the whole-tone scale "in segments" in terms of theory-(i.e.melodic patterns implying all the aug.triads over the dom7#5)

This is based on a pattern of continuous eighths,starting on whichever note of the whole-tone scale you want;play it over a dom7#5 built on the  scale root.The example is for B7#5-(in terms of direction-down,up,up,up,down(chromatics)three times then up,then down to start the next one...try it starting in different places rhythmically too-

AC#FA-G#GF#G#-GBD#G-F#FEF#.....
Gets you into thinking about how to build lines that take advantage of the tension the chord sets up..plus this is a usable pattern itself.....

tomwrush -- 05/17/2004, 20:57:06 -- #4361
smg
hey man, I'm just lurking. Things are busy with rehearsals for the performance coming up and end of term academic stuff... also I just got a new keyboard.
that pattern looks cool, I'm gonna dig on it tonight.
peace,
tom

Max Angelo -- 05/19/2004, 20:40:56 -- #4425
Beeing the topic related to dom7#5 chord, probably Barry Harrys chords scale could be something so ( in C ie C7#5 ):

E Gb Bb C
F Ab B D
Gb Bb C E
Ab B D F
Bb C E G
B D F Ab
C E Gb Bb
D F Ab B
E Gb Bb C

playable in 4 way close ( left hand playing the top right hand note )
or in drop 2 ( left hand playing the second note from the top )

smg -- 05/20/2004, 12:22:11 -- #4461
Hey Max Angelo!! where you been????

Max Angelo -- 05/20/2004, 19:36:31 -- #4483
Hi smg, was offline for a lot of time :)
The new site is really very very nice !!!

BTW I forgot a flat in my table .....
The 5th chord is:

Bb C E Gb

Try this movement ie at the beginning of "I hear a rhapsody", on the pick up notes G A B:

(LH)G (RH)B Db F G
(LH)F# (RH)C Eb Gb A
(LH)G (RH)Db F G B

then Cm7 (LH)B (RH)Eb G D
.........(LH)A (RH)Eb G C ...... etc etc

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