| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: left vs. right | |
| terry111tj -- 05/10/2004, 14:04:12 -- #4233 | |
| My introduction.. I first touched a keyboard not quite 4 years ago, at age 57. I'm on my 4th teacher now, but have a keeper - . In the lessons we (she) puts together really nice-sounding arrangements to standards from lead sheets. I can spell chords, am studying Haerle's "The Jazz Language," have listened to jazz my entire adult life, and I like the sounds I am learning to make (memorized for now, not improvised yet). My problem is developing independence between my hands... years of living-room guitar (or maybe just years!) has both hands operating together. I can do a RH figure alone, or LH, but the results are not good when I put them together. I have to break even simple things down to dead slow to get the coordination learned between the RH and LH. I can't do the simplest repetitive LH figure, without losing it when I try to add the RH. I'm working on a couple of boogies, but it's taking a long time. (Had one teacher comment I'd get it faster if I was 10 years old...) I'm looking for advice on methods for increasing the independence of the hands, ideally while learning something that sounds like jazz. Drills, pieces of tunes, riffs, anything for the mechanical aspect of playing... what do you pros use to get your students the freedom I'm talking about... does this make sense? By the way, Scot, I caught Walter Norris a couple of weeks ago playing solo tunes like his Maybeck Concert Hall recital CD... unbelievable! | |
| smg -- 05/10/2004, 14:29:43 -- #4235 | |
| If you have access to a tape recorder,you can use it to record one hand's part,then work on playing the other part against it.Another thing that's good which has been suggested here before is to work on stuff written for drum independence,this will get you dealing with it away from the piano with all the related stuff going on and just might help you to focus in on it..... | |
| Mike -- 05/10/2004, 18:58:29 -- #4238 | |
| basically it sounds like you are on the right track. You have to identify a left hand part, a right hand part... practice them hands seperately until they are automatic and then put them hands together at first a very slow tempo. After doing more and more tunes this way the process will become quicker. Also practice bass lines or left hand cliches for left hand chord progressions. This way some day when you see a chord progressions you will not have to pause to think what your left hand will do there, you will automatically plug in what you have practiced or something similar to it. This will speed up the process of playing hands together as well. Another thing that I have teach all my students is essential even though I require no other classical music is Johann Sebastion Bach. I have rarely had a student develope solid hend independence and a understanding of the eigth note and quarter note that is beyond the superficial until they have studied and learned a substancial Bach repetoire to Performance quality. Ragtime is also reccomended. Even if it is not your cup of tea, Nor the style of music you want to ultimately perform. Ragtime is one of the ultimate challenges in hands independence. Learn a lot of Ragtime and you will find that all of a sudden you are over prepared for a lot of other hands together situation. Its a good exercise to take a Ragtime piece like the Maple Leaf Rag and learn it to the point that you can improvise over the left hand part....... theres some hand indendence... try the same with some Bach. Often the answers in conquering or getting better at musical challenges is to over prepare... go beyond what is required. | |
| terry111tj -- 05/10/2004, 19:48:06 -- #4239 | |
| Thanks for the advice... Gary, I generally practice with a Roland FP3 on headphones... it has a record feature that's super easy to use, and I have used it to mostly hear what it should sound like with both hands... it is helpful. Mike, I love ragtime... just haven't had the nerve to tackle it, other than the preparatory exercises that Scott Joplin recommended... I have the book, just haven't put in the time. Have you got a couple of Bach titles for starting out? | |
| bfunk -- 05/10/2004, 21:27:34 -- #4240 | |
| As far as Bach goes, the 'two part inventions' are neat for polyphony and independence of the hands. Look for a copy that has fingerings written in so you know the easiest way to play the parts. I think the "anna magladena notebook" is a bit easier, i'm not sure. The Well tempered clavier would be helpful as well, but you would probably want to go through these others first. Anyone else have some good Bach ideas? The man had a huge volume of music, and I've only been exposed to a small portion of it. | |
| gsandberg -- 05/11/2004, 00:05:28 -- #4241 | |
| I think this Bach and ragtime stuff is to much for a beginner. Start easy, basic blues/boogie pattern in left hand: CG CG CA CA. Right hand play EGAC on beat 1 and on beat 2 AND. Alternate between tonic and subdominant, four bars each. On subdominant LH: FC FC FD FD, RH: EbGAC. Play that for two hours during the next two weeks. Then when you change to subdominant, play RH on beats 1 AND and 3. Alternate between those two RH rythms, one bar each, two bars each and so on. Work on this for another couple of weeks. Get the feel for those nice syncopations and get the groove into your system. Keep that left hand pumping and eventually you will start to add more things to your right hand, freeing yourself more and more from the awareness of what your left hand is doing. Start with simple things, be persistent, master them and then the difficult things will be much easier. | |
| Mike -- 05/11/2004, 05:20:06 -- #4242 | |
| Terry has not identified himself as a beginer. First Lessons in Bach ..., Books one and two are the ones to begin with for Bach... Book one is essentially the same as The Anna Magdalena book. These pieces Bach wrote specifically to teach his wife Anna how to play keyboard with. Therefore they were intended for beginers, although to my teaching skills they are too difficult for absolute beginers and I do not introduce them until appx the second year of study. Ragtime is difficult when you first try it whether you try it after 4 years of playing or after 20 years of playing ..... so its just a matter of choosing when to accept the challenge. | |
| 7 -- 05/11/2004, 08:54:21 -- #4245 | |
| This is a reprint from a recent post of mine in the "Walking Bass" department here. It is relevant to this discussion of independence. * * * * * * * The term for hands not being able to perform indepedently is called "interference". It is the same reason that most people cannot pat their heads and rub their belly at the same time - The hands have a tendency to "copy" each other. In order to achieve RH-LH independence you'll need to perform much more complex operations than patting your head and rubbing your belly. How to do that? As I've said many times, the more I play music the more I feel that it's very similar to juggling in many ways. The old adage "Practice makes Perfect" is not really true. You can practice your butt off and still make mistakes. My adage is "Practice makes REFLEXES". You need to practice until your hands play on auto-pilot and the entire music playing process becomes second nature to you as semi-subconscious reflexes. Like juggling. Practice your hands separately at first. I generally tell my students to that you should only have to put 5% of your brain into your LH accompaniment so that you can put 95% of your brain into RH soloing. While practicing your LH to get it to perform subconsciously, try crazy things like rubbing your belly, patting your head, reading a book, talking out loud - this will help speed up the process. At first it will be tricky, but I promise it gets easier the more you do it. You should also practice with your eyes closed. It gives you a whole new outlook on the visualization thing. * * * * * * * 7 | |
| terry111tj -- 05/11/2004, 11:14:48 -- #4248 | |
| 7 The day after the Walter Norris Concert mentioned above, I observed a master class, and he used several distractions... he had one young man doing CCW circles with his right foot, clockwise motion of right hand, then said "improvise something with the left hand." He said that these were some of the ways he practiced. He also said "it's really hard... but you have to practice the hard stuff." I appreciate all the input I received, but you're all telling me there is no silver bullet... you just gotta do it until you CAN do it, and that makes sense. Since I've started late, I will to try to be more patient with myself in order to avoid suffering acute depression. | |
| smg -- 05/11/2004, 15:55:02 -- #4255 | |
| If the Roland has a drum track,use it when you do the exercise I suggested to deal with increasing the speed gradually.See at what point you lose the sense of being able to feel the syncopation/polyrhythm and work on it a little slower than that.If you have to start at "dead slow" that's cool for as long as necessary,but if you keep everything oriented to the beat,before long you'll be able to work it up to tempo... | |
| albetan -- 05/17/2004, 07:47:23 -- #4344 | |
| Hi 7: Good post!. In my recent file "Beginning improvisation" i mention your words: "you should only have to put 5% of your brain into your LH accompaniment so that you can put 95% of your brain into RH soloing." That's main secret to improvise. | |
| 7 -- 05/17/2004, 10:15:39 -- #4347 | |
| Thank you Albetan! Since you've used my quote, I assume that you've given me full credit for it. So, when do I begin receiving my royalty checks? LOL 7 | |
| dsouva -- 05/18/2004, 19:30:08 -- #4395 | |
| I have 10 years of classical piano behind me... Bach is not easy by any scope of the imagination... at least in my opinion... I am going back to lessons after 15 years of no lessons... My first repetoire to have ready for class is Joplins Solace, not as raggy as a lot of his stuff, but I can play about 4 Joplin pieces (the more you play the "easier" it gets... ), Chopin's Prelude #4, which is not difficult but has a LOT of expression in it... and Bach's 2 part invention #8. I have ALWAYS had issues with Bach. I remember learning preludes and fugues after a few years of lessons... The easiest way I have to learn Bach is LISTEN to a recording till you internalize each phrase... and play as was suggested with a recording of one hand while playing the other along with it. I do the same for Joplin. Stride is hard for me, my left hand is fairly independent but when it has huge leaps I miss.... but after 1.5 years of pushing myself back to a decent proficiency... i am getting much better. It will come... just relax... and take your time. I am glad you found a good teacher after 4! I havent taken lessons since i was 18. I am 33 now... I HOPE that this teacher and I connect... if not its gonna be a long semester. GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!! I told my mom who is 58 that she can learn piano... she says no way, i am too old.... I say, "BAH!!" I am soo glad to hear that you are embracing it! | |
| Mike -- 05/18/2004, 19:44:54 -- #4396 | |
| I have a student that started with me at 65. A retired Boston Fireman. AT 70 he is pretty damn good at and having quite a bit of fun with it. | |
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