| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Moving on... | |
| docz -- 05/11/2004, 10:31:09 -- #4247 | |
| Hello again, I would like to thank the people who use their time and effort to keep this site happening, it's great! And I have some questions. (Sorry for the long post again, I start playing the piano and my head fills up with so many questions, and I don't have anyone else to turn to :) ) I now know all the 2-5-1 excersizes in all keys. It was fairly easy to learn. Now my wife got me a video of Joe Pass that showed stuff over 1-6-2-5 progressions, great video btw. Now what I don't get are the "substitutions". Ok I've read the lessons, but I don't get it. Have I understood this right that substitutions are related chords to the chord written on the score that you play instead of the chord? Or does one play more than one chord for one chord on the score? Is there like a form/table (pardon my english, I'm norwegian) somwhere that shows the relationships of all theese chords? With color tones? I'm not good at reading notation, at least not when notes are stacked, my eyes get's confused, I like symbols better. And the chords he playes doesn't sound the way on my piano, so my voicings are probably wrong. But I'll figure that out :) Also is there a place on this site where I can maybe post a midi of some of my playing, so that maybe someone could give me a pointer to what I can improve etc. maybe what I could learn next, or ways to expand the song/piece further? Sincerely, Doc-Z | |
| smg -- 05/11/2004, 15:49:21 -- #4254 | |
| You're in luck,man..a few months ago there was a lot of interest in this subject.Over at 360,there is a file of links specifically for substitution,and also 4 files that deal with substitution-Green Dolphin St.,Autumn leaves,Some new stuff,and "chords on dom tensions"...also you might want to use search to find the posts that led to them....... | |
| albetan -- 05/11/2004, 15:59:29 -- #4256 | |
| Hi Doc-Z: You may substitute a chord in a song by other with same notes but different root. It's a substitute chord. Examples: Dm7 - G7 - C Dm7 - Db7 - C G7 in its more elemental form is : G B F Db7 is : Db F B Do you see it clear? Same notes with different root. Here we have an interval of tritone from F to B. So we speak about "tritone substitute". The tritone substitute of G7 is Db7. Play G6, Em7, Cmaj9.... Observe same notes : B D E G with different roots: G, E, C So you may interchange chords: Cm6, Am7b5, F9. Dm7, G11, F6 In search engine (upwards at right corner) please write: scales and chords modal scales selecting "files" in next window, and you will have all basic chords for jazz. | |
| docz -- 05/13/2004, 06:40:00 -- #4285 | |
| What is a tritone? here in norway we refer to intervals as prim. quints, quarts, setptims, octaves etc. | |
| albetan -- 05/13/2004, 07:33:49 -- #4286 | |
| Touch F go to 3 tones upwards... you will find B Play F B as a chord... that's a TRITONE. two notes with an interval of 3 tones. You have G7 chord... look for TRITONE SUBSTITUTE: a chord with same notes and different root is Db7.... It is the tritone substitute. G7: G F B Db7: Db F B | |
| docz -- 05/14/2004, 03:51:01 -- #4300 | |
| So when substituting should one exclude the quint(or 5th tone if thats what it's called in english) from the chord? Or should one play a full Db7(Db, F, Ab, B) instead of a G7, should one use the standard form of playing it? or some invertet version? Doc-z | |
| albetan -- 05/14/2004, 06:04:26 -- #4303 | |
| When substituting you may play complete chord. | |
| albetan -- 05/14/2004, 06:52:05 -- #4304 | |
| Sorry message went spontaneously... Examples: G7: G B D F Altering 5 : G B Db F Substituting bass: Db7: Db B Db F same notes in top part Db7: Db F Ab B Altering 5 : Db F G B G7: G B D F G F G B same notes in top part G7: G B D F Adding 9: G B D F A Altering 9, 5 : G B Db F Ab Db7: Db B Db F Ab same notes in top part. G7 inverted: D F G B Altering 5 : Db F G B Adding b9,, omit 1: Db F Ab B So from G7 you came to Db7............. A seventh chord may be substituted by other seventh chord made over flat fifth. | |
| docz -- 05/14/2004, 13:51:48 -- #4311 | |
| Sorry for asking again :) But I find this topic really interesting and since this is the only place I've found where I can interact with other musicians I use this opurtunity. If I've understood this correctly you can substitute the following chords: C7 - F#7b5b9 (C7= C E G Bb / F#7b5b9= F# Bb C E G) Which in theese pop days will translate to a C7/F# ? am I correct? But Joe Pass talked in his video about substituting the 1 chord (C if key is C) for a Em7#9 is that another form of substitution? Thank you again for your replies :) Sincerely, Doc_Z | |
| albetan -- 05/14/2004, 15:09:06 -- #4312 | |
| In your last post you have discovered by yourself "altered seventh chords". I invite you to download two files in "Albetan's Area": "Altered seventh chords" and "Extended chords". Sure you may substitute C by Em7: C = Cmaj7 ; Cmaj7 = Cmaj9 ; Cmaj9 subst: Em7 C = C6 ; C6 subst: Am7 | |
| albetan -- 05/14/2004, 15:23:41 -- #4314 | |
| Other substitute chords are chords of same quality: So you may substitute chords of same family or same quality: C7 _ C9 _ C11 _ C13 _ C7#5 _ C7b9 _ C9#11 _ C9b13 _ C7#9 _ ...... Remember you have 5 qualities or families: MAJOR - SEVENTH - MINOR - HALF DIMINISHED - DIMINISHED | |
| docz -- 05/14/2004, 15:54:40 -- #4317 | |
| What about augmented? those count as something else? Docz | |
| albetan -- 05/14/2004, 17:37:22 -- #4320 | |
| An aumented chord is a seventh chord with altered fifth. C7#5 C9#5 Omitting 7 you have: Caugm This is a seventh quality chord with altered fifth. Augmented chords have a special scale: whole tone scale. | |
| albetan -- 05/15/2004, 08:38:44 -- #4323 | |
| We are speaking a lot about substitutes. You must have only a rule about it: GOOD TASTE AND NO ABUSE. You must respect original harmonic context of a piece. For instance see IMPRESSIONS by Coltrane. All song is in IIm7 so: 16 bars Dm7; 8 bars Ebm7; 8 bars Dm7. Then you think that it is very poor and fill all bars with substitutes... POOR COLTRANE!!!! His first idea was so: to work with dorian mode over a IIm7. Good luck and remember the only rule: GOOD TASTE AND NO ABUSE. | |
| smg -- 05/17/2004, 14:18:53 -- #4353 | |
| Have you checked out the stuff I mentioned?-360 degrees is on this site (in case you didn't realize what I was talking about)....use the room map.... | |
| smg -- 05/17/2004, 14:21:31 -- #4354 | |
| http://cc2.hku.nl/wim/reservoir/ict-b/ is in your language I think...... | |
| docz -- 05/19/2004, 05:36:38 -- #4403 | |
| Thanks for the links, sadly the language is dutch, not norwegian :( but I did read the stuff over at 360, and been practising the stuff Albetan wrote about. I'm still working on getting it to sound good. Like Db7 instead of G7, it doesn't sound as good when I play it. (LH: Db Ab B RH:F Ab B Eb) So I must be doing this wrong. I also tried the 3 6 2 5 1 substitution for 2 5 1, but I can't get that either to sound good (when using it in a song) for instance in Fly me to the moon (starts 2 - 5 - 1 on "Fly me to the moon, and let me..") but that must be me playing the voicings wrong, right? Sincerely Doc-Z | |
| albetan -- 05/19/2004, 06:18:10 -- #4405 | |
| Hi Doc-Z: That Db9 chord you are doing is right. What sounds wrong for you may be the ninth color... ninth sounds as a dissonance in classical harmony. Please download a "file" at Albetan's : "Extended chords" study it and practice carefully exercises in order to open your hearing perception of jazzy sounds, as 9, 11, #11, 13. Other "files" will help a lot: "harmonic exercises 3 and 4" about diatonic and chromatic "altered seventh chords". "melodic voicings 1" for arranging at sight with 4 voices. Enjoy it. | |
| smg -- 05/19/2004, 09:51:28 -- #4410 | |
| The reason the stuff doesn't sound right might be the range you're using to play the chords in..... | |
| docz -- 05/19/2004, 11:16:17 -- #4412 | |
| Sorry smg, I didn't write the piano tab correctly, I just typed the notes. The range I played the notes are: (I don't know if this is correct either, but what I mean by the numbers are 1 lowest octave on piano 2 second lowest and so on..) LH: 2Db 2Ab 2B Right hand: 3F 3Ab 3B 4Eb Or everything shifted up an octave. | |
| docz -- 05/19/2004, 11:23:31 -- #4415 | |
| I've been sitting here today watching this Joe Pass video again and again, and I've been writing down the chords, substitutions and voicings he uses. I've compiled all theese into one little file, which I'm going to use for practise. I thought maybe someone else may also have use for it so I've attached it to this message. Sincerely, Doc-Z | |
| 7 -- 05/19/2004, 22:09:33 -- #4427 | |
| Docz, For an explanation of piano tab, please visit: http://www.JeffreeBrent.com/Lessons/pianotab.html Thanks! 7 | |
| smg -- 05/20/2004, 12:20:47 -- #4460 | |
| I'd try dropping the middle note in the LH(Ab) and see if you like that better,also,try playing the voicing in close position(i.e.consecutive notes) and mid-range(I think you're describing that actually re-above)as if it was a guitar....docz you check out those substitution links and the other stuff I recommended yet?I'd be interested in knowing if you got the concept together and if not,any questions....BTW that site has a lot of English translation as well....remember that guitar voicing concepts and piano concepts are different although they can be understood and used interchangeably after messing around with them....there's some Joe Pass transcriptions online if you want the link............. | |
| docz -- 05/20/2004, 14:46:20 -- #4474 | |
| I would love some of those Joe Pass transcriptions! I've already started to play those excersizes on his video on guitar. I play both piano and guitar. And I sometimes translate between the two instruments. Sometimes I play piano as if I was playing guitar, and vice versa. But mostly I play guitar and think as if I was playing piano. The voicings I use are usually pretty close, I usually finger a chord on the piano in the region of one octave. I've been playing with theese subs all day, and I begin to understand the concepts. when changing the root and omitting the 5th, not always, but sometimes, and concentrating on other tones you get substitutions right? Like Cmaj becomes E9 which with a C root is basically a C+maj9. And you can swap chords for other chords with the same or nearly the same notes, like Cmaj becomes Em#9, or Fmaj becomes Am7. And you can substitute chords for another chord in the same family, like G7 for Gaug7, or C7 for C7b9 right? Please correct my, this is just me trying to simplify the concepts and translate them to my way of playing. I've never learned any particular musical theory, other than how chords work, and basic notation reading. So for me it's always been my ear who taught me stuff. I've always thought of chords as a linear form, this concept that chords represent other chords is relativly new to me, and from this that I've learned, I have found that many of theese substitutions are stuff I usually do subconcious, not knowing that I do them, beause I've just learnt from hearing, newer been concious of what I've been playing. I've managed to dig up a version of "Summertime" from excerpts of various discussions on this and the old forum using the search function. This had some really interesting chord changes, which really got me going today. Doc-Z | |
| smg -- 05/20/2004, 15:14:55 -- #4475 | |
| Sounds like you're getting a good understanding of this man....why not take the time to really look at the file I have that deals with this that gets into subs based on the theory of the chords' function in the progression and also chords derived theoretically from a given chord......I might be able to post this link today,if not ASAP.....take a look at the file called"Chords built on the dom 7" at 360..these are the kind of subs I like to use for the 5 chord..I have an updated addition to this I'll post at some point....also the file "some new stuff" at the end will show you some ideas for subs..... | |
| smg -- 05/20/2004, 15:17:46 -- #4476 | |
| http://users.rcn.com/danadler/jazz/solos/index.html | |
| docz -- 05/20/2004, 15:48:03 -- #4479 | |
| Thank SMG you're a link master! :) I will check out those files over the weekend Cheers mate :) Doc-Z | |
| smg -- 05/21/2004, 07:18:33 -- #4501 | |
| Thanks for posting that R+B stuff,I'm getting ready to check it out......... | |
| smg -- 05/21/2004, 07:38:03 -- #4503 | |
| Nice file man..how about an audio file of your approach to Survivor and Fallin'?? | |
| smg -- 05/21/2004, 09:03:04 -- #4505 | |
| http://www.stuntzner.brent.org/Transcriptions.html | |
| docz -- 05/21/2004, 11:01:28 -- #4506 | |
| Thanks, I will see if I get some time to make some midi's over the weeked. I have a gig on saturday, so maybe I can use the sequencer on my yamaha, and maybe work some of those tunes into the gig. :) Thanks for that link! great one! Doc-Z | |
| smg -- 05/21/2004, 12:06:21 -- #4510 | |
| Yeah,I'd like a chance to hear how you play the current stuff..I listen to these kind of recordings and try to figure out what's going on,and this would help me....for more info about what I'm into re-composition,check that room..... | |
| Copyright © 2005 by Scot Ranney. All rights reserved. | |
| Click Here for more information about performances and clinics. Click Here to sign up for Scot's music announcements. | |