Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: Funk Style

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: Funk Style
Billy -- 06/12/2004, 10:23:12 -- #4879
ive been looking at alot of funk style music recently, the kind of style done by herbie hancock. I was wondering if anyone has some tips on this style of music, for instance, chord structures, chord voicing, bass lines, licks, etc. Also, im looking for tips on how the different keyboards that are used should be played, for instance, the rhodes pianos, clavinet, wurlitzer, organ, etc. Thanks for your help!
Mike -- 06/12/2004, 16:45:19 -- #4883
The essence of Jazz/Swing is the eigth note, to play it well chord structures, voicings, bass lines , licks are all a very distant second to mastering the eigth note. It is similar with Funk. The essence of Funk is the 16th note. Everything else is secondary to mastering the 16th note here. I watched first hand how Dave Frank mastered Funk before being hired by Phil Collins, Chaka Kahn and many otheres to do there Funk arrangements and keyboard work. He wrote out 16th note rhythms and always had them on his piano, always editing them and always practicing every concievalbe permutation to perfection. Its all about playing 16th notes with exacting precision and maybe more importantly resting for 16th note durations with exacting precision.
mooondancer -- 06/13/2004, 14:10:14 -- #4894
I've been listening to a lot of funk as well -- I assume you are talking about Herbie's Head Hunters album which is a hip piece of shit! I also like Sly and the Family Stone, the Isley Brothers, James Brown, and Earth Wind and Fire. For me the main difference in playing funk is that you don't have a lot of chord changes to work with. Funk is much more about rhythm and groove -- the interaction between bass and drums and the rhythmic ideas you can play on top. Funk solos are based on rhythm, not harmony or melody. The evidence of this is that many great funk songs are written in only one key and do not use any fancy chord substitutions to inject harmonic interest. 95% of "Chameleon" is in A flat major. But when Herbie plays, he listens to his drummer and hand percussion player, and the bass line, and then starts playing his piano like the rhythm instrument that it is. Also when you play funk, you have to simplify your chords. I found this out when I had to play with a guitar player, and my 9th and 13th chords sounded very out of place. In jazz we aren't used to playing simple triads, but they can be very effective when used rhythmically. By adding a sixth or whatever here and there you can come up with a nice groove. Quartal voicings are also good because they give you seven different voicings to use on any scale and lend themselves to rhythmic playing. Playing funk is a different way of thinking -- Miles found it when he started doing his Bi tches Brew shit. I read something when Herbie was playing wierd rhythmic things behind Miles in the 60s Quintet and Miles was having a hard time following, because he was used to following a lot of chords at the same time. Herbie said, "Miles told me not to stop, and he came back and played better the next day. And by the third day I was the one being left behind. Miles said to me, 'Man, I don't want to play no more chords!'"
james3 -- 06/15/2004, 01:19:27 -- #4928
quick question.... What do you mean by Dave Frank worked out all the sixteen note permutations. How did he apply them? Thanks! James
Mike -- 06/15/2004, 05:45:53 -- #4931
The dictionary definition of a permutation applys here: 2. The act of altering a given set of objects in a group. 3. Mathematics. A rearrangement of the elements of a set. So for example you might take a piece of music paper and a pencil. sit down at your piano. write down a group of four 16 notes. Now your task is to see how many different ways you can rearrange them including replacing a or some 16th notes with rests. Keep doing so until you have covered all mathematical possabilities. Practice all possabilities for automatic facility. Then play chords in those rhythms. Then play bass lines in those rhythms. Be creative find funk melodic bass lines that sound good with those rhythmic permutations and then you are starting to become a funk master. comp different perrmutions in the right hand..... It can get wild and fun and ah so funky.
PeaceFroggy -- 06/16/2004, 04:03:54 -- #4948
For some inspiration listen to KC & The Sunshine Band. They pushed the dance funk grooves of the mid-70s and the lead singer Harry Wayne Casey is also the keyboardist. Another track to get hold of is Sister Sledge - We Are Family (Live). This live version is jam-packed with funky piano riffs.
Scot -- 06/17/2004, 15:07:04 -- #4977
Brecker Brothers, Chase, Blood Sweat and Tears, James Brown, Tower of Power, Earth Wind and Fire, Herbie, Miles from the 80's and 90's, etc... Good funk is based more on the choice of rhythm than what notes you play. Victor Wooten, a current grand master of the electric bass and all funky styles (plays with Bela Fleck and has several of his own recordings) once said this: "You can't hold no groove if you don't have a pocket." That means that you need to really have a clear idea of WHERE you are putting your notes so that they fit within the rhythmic spectrum of the music. As always, the best way to learn about a music style is to listen to it constantly and do some transcribing of riffs and lines that you like. If you do that, you will begin to understand what makes it tick. Some basic formula to think about: - repition is the basis of groove, and groove is the basis of funk. Not just one note over and over, but several ideas that loop. - keep chords simple at first. Triads and such. I'm not sure what else. funk is like any other music, it's just that the rhythm and notes are a bit different :)
Jazz+ -- 08/08/2004, 15:18:46 -- #6371
Good comments!
hepcatmonk -- 08/09/2004, 01:28:23 -- #6384
welll...let's see. i actually played funk in bands for a while, and i played a fender rhodes. what I think you should look at, as well as rhythm, is harmonic color. Looking at some funk recordings from the period: Eddie Henderson's Sunburst, Herbie Hancock's Mwandishi, Bitches Brew, Sextant, etc... Check out the hip stuff they are playing on all of this!! What drew me in most to funk, besides the infectious groove, were the awesome comping techniques people used in the style. The chords are intense man. Some people have suggested triads in this forum...I don't necessarily agree. What's cool about funk (or the funk you're describing, if we're thinking of the same herbie hancock) are all of the awesome quartal and quintal voicings, and polyharmonies. A big thing in funk are voicings built on stacked fourths. That means you use a lot of so what chords (a so what chord are stacked fourths and a third...in c minor, it'd be C F Bb Eb G). do a lot of chromatic movement with these. comp them quick, in cool places. Move them up and down in half steps on quarter note triplets...that's hip. For a cool C minor chord, stack fourths from the third: Eb A D G C. A big thing with a lot of funk harmony is the sus4. don't ever be afraid to throw it in...it's funky. A lot of polyharmonies are cool. In c minor, throw a b flat triad in teh mix: LH: Eb A RH: D F Bflat. Funk voicings sound best in the mid range of teh keyboard, from the C below middle C to the G above. What also sounds good are a voicing that involves fourths in the left hand in this range, and a two octaves higher fat four note chord in the right hand. try it out. The biggest harmonic feature, i'd say, of funk is the #9. Play sharp nine chords a lot. like....C#9: E Bb Eb G Bb. They sound really cool. Clusters...screw aroudn with them. they're cool behind solos...three four or five note clusters that include teh third are very cool. Fat sounds are very cool. Another cool thing about funk are pentatonics. The minor pentatonic lines, with really syncopated rhythms, are what make funk really cool. The other thing is playing outside. Man, that shit is hip, especially if you're playing cool chords behind it. In c minor, play some lines using the c minor pentatonic for three bars, then switch to aflat minor pentatonic for the fourth, and bring the line back to c minor for the fifth bar...this is all over a tonality of c minor. if you've built a good improvized line, this will sound awesome, and adds to the spacy soudn of funk. Practice improvising a line in a specific tonality, then switching to various other tonalities mid line to add a lot of spice to your playing. REMEMBER - funk has a repetitive chordal structure. Usually, funk songs are one chord. So, it's up to you to make it interesting, with cool comp chords, cool rhythms, outside lines, etc. I outlined a way to take a line outside and back, but try adding variety; introduce a line or solo with a fast outside passage...that's a really good idea. Also, don't start all your lines on the downbeats...start your lines on different beats... the & of 2, the "e" of 3, etc. keep things lively and vary them. Listen to the masters: freddie hubbard, herbie hancock, eddie henderson. Listen especially to george duke's comping on the album Sunburst with Eddie Henderson...the communication in that rhythm section is unreal. Try to get a great rhythm section communication going. REMEMBER: above all, you're a percussion instrument. Let your inner drummer out! Above all...although rhythmic punches are an integral and awesome part of funk, the biggest reason the Fender Rhodes keyboard pushed funk piano playing so far forward was its blending quality; it's tonal quality blends so well with the bass, guitar, and other rhythm section members. There are times to stick out, but usually it's time to blend, and lay a solid groove. The different permutations of 16th notes is a very good idea, Mike. But one thing i'm suprised people haven't mentioned is space. Space is SO important in funk solos and comping. The funk lies in what's NOT played. Sometimes don't comp in a bar. Stop playing for a couple of beats in your solo, or even a couple bars. The groove and rhythm of the music is quite entrancing; not putting enough space into the music can mar this. Look at funk drummers...Clyde Stubblefield, etc. Although their beats have a lot of ghost notes, they also have a lot of space. Listen to the James Brown song Cold Sweat. The fact that the drummer doesn't play something on the downbeat of teh second bar of the drumbeat is what makes it so funky. Try imagining it with a bass drum beat on the downbeat...it would kill the groove. The point of music is to make people happy. If you come up with a cool comp riff and repeat it for 4 or 8 bars, it will be awesome. People will recognize it, and dig on it. It will make them want to dance. If you come up with a cool enough line, people might love it enough to take it with them and hum it on the way home from the gig. So, i guess what i'm saying is...a repetitive groove for a little bit of time is very cool. I have walked home from many a concert finding myself humming or having a comp riff from the piano stuck in my head...and it brings me such joy. Strive to evoke that feeling in others.
Billy -- 08/09/2004, 12:15:35 -- #6398
thanks alot for that great post hepcatmonk!
mooondancer -- 08/09/2004, 21:28:45 -- #6409
Yes. That's the truth and I love to hear people say it. The point of music is to make people happy. We can be as esoteric and intellectual as we want, but if our music doesn't capture life and move people, we have failed as artists.
hepcatmonk -- 08/10/2004, 08:14:08 -- #6421
absolutely
Gordon -- 08/11/2004, 04:55:08 -- #6435
Hepcat - I thought you were a wise old man after reading your post - and then I see you're just a swaddling babe - v nice post btw - do you have any recommendations of specific models of the fenderrhodes or rhodes pianos for playing fuuuuuunky grooves ?
docz -- 08/11/2004, 07:40:43 -- #6437
also look at my elton john file in Larsen's Cabin. A lot of that stuff translates into funk and r&b. Also check out the "Basic R&B" file. Also has some pointers for tricks to use in funk. Cheers! Doc-Z
hepcatmonk -- 08/11/2004, 13:17:17 -- #6445
Gordon- thanks. As for the Rhodes, I'd say...whatever you can get your hands on in good condition is the best choice! Working on your Rhodes takes a lot of time; if the person who owned it before you, you're gonna be spending DAYS AND DAYS adjusting pickup placement and tonebars. Keep in mind that there are at least 73 pickups and tonebars on all the Rhodes pianos, so tweaking all of these variables to try to get them to sound uniform is a pain! The two main Rhodes models used by the funk greats were the Mark I and Mark II. Allthough I'm not sure, I think that these models differ mainly in tonebar construction and circuitry. Regardless, both are great pianos with different sound. The Rhodes I have is the one that's generally associated with the classic Rhodes Sound - the Mark I Suitcase. That is not to say I wish I had a different one --sometimes i certainly do! Although many people say Herbie Hancock had a Mark I Suitcase (which i suppose he did for the most part) he actually had a prototype that was constantly being refitted with the latest enhancements CBS made to the Rhodes piano construction. This means that you'd be hard pressed to find any Mark I suitcase that gives you a soudn like herbie's; i've never heard a rhodes with as beautiful of a sound as his. Some of the writings of his tech, Steve Woodyard, indicate that he used different hammers than what was the factory norm at the time, but the actual details of this escape my mind right now. In general, the Mark I pianos have a more "barky" sound with bite and are generally considered more funky. The Mark II pianos have a more subdued, bell-like sound that is considered funky as well, but in a more laidback groove way than percussive way. However, this is not to define roles for the instruments. A Mark I piano can be adjusted (moving back the tone bars and pickups) to tweak the sound enough that it may soudn like a Mark II; likewise with the Mark I. The important thing about these instruments is that their sound is incredibly easy to customize and adapt for whatever music you're playing. A screwdriver is all you need to do all these tone adjustments, and a little trial and error is all you need. I'd personally recommend Mark I because you have such a wide spectrum of tones that can get really fat and barky as well as chilled-out, introspective and subdued. But it's really not important. What is important are cost, and the condition of the instrument. You can make any working Rhodes piano work for you and your music. Now-- in both Mark I and II models, there is another variable. There are two models, called Stage and Suitcase. The suitcase model is a combination keyboard and amplifier, in two modules. the keyboard is placed atop the amp, and you line up the pedal (built into the amp) with a column inside the keyboard. The keyboard is required to be plugged into the amp in order to power up. The effects loop (on almost all Mark I and all Mark II pianos) allows guitar effects to be put into the mix, which is highly recommended. Keep in mind that with the Suitcase model, you aren't stuck with having to use that Amp...you can put it out to any amplifier you want, but you will have to have the amp present at all your gigs so that you can power up the keyboard in the first place. If you don't like the sound of the Suitcase amp, this can be a pain in the ass, because the amp weighs 100 pounds. MajorKey makes a device that allows teh rhodes to power up yourself. If you like the soudn of a suitcase piano better (and they do have a different sound; more biting and percussive) you can invest in this device sold by i think MajorKey that allows the keyboard to plug into any outlet and then go out to an amp. The stage model is just a Keyboard, and it doesn't need to be plugged into an amp to power up. I think I'd recommend you to get a Stage model, and not make the mistake I made. Whenever you want to jam or you have to play a gig, you have to take into account the weight of my keyboard. Just the keys on my keyboard are 125 pounds...the suitcase amp together with that makes a total of 225 pounds. Ugh, that'll put your back out, unless you have assistance. The Suitcase amp is kinda muddy (to my ears and compared to high-end keyboard amps) but it gets the job done and it gets FRICKING LOUD. Unless your keyboard is set up with the pickups really wrong, it will be certainly loud enough. When i had my piano set up before, I only had to turn it to 7 and it could compete with a rock band's guitars in a show...and that's without soudn reinforcement. It's a beast. Inside the suitcase amp are 4 speakers; two face the audience and two face back at you, for monitors of your own sound. I think they are 100watts, but can't remember. It's not a bad sounding amp at all...i'd recommend it, but at some point you may desire a less muddy sound when you're in a different group that requires more subtlety, or something. The more you play your piano, the more you want to change the sound. Price is another issue. NEVER, and i mean EVER buy a rhodes where any keys don't work. If the volume of some of the keys are even all of them are uneven, it's not a good sign (it means someone's done weird things to the inside that didn't know what they're doing) but it is an easy, easy fix. If a Rhodes is out of tune, I would caution you to not buy it. Although intonation is a sorta easy fix (you slide a spring forward and back) it is a pain in the ass, and also a bad sign about what's been done to the keyboard in the past. What's most important to check for: an even touch and action, and a satisfactory tone. ALthough you can alter tone yourself (and even theoretically action), there's only so much you can do. Plus, every Rhodes sounds completely different. You also want to do the best work. I paid $600 dollars for my suitcase piano; amp and keyboard. I say this is a fine price, but I wouldn't pay a dollar more for it, considering the amount of work i had to do to fix it up. A lot of time people are selling rhodes online for upwards $1000 dollars. This is a rip. For a stage piano in great condition, i'd pay $400. Most of the time I see rhodes, they are ridiculously priced for too much. I'm so sorry to ramble about all of this; I'd say, i'd recommend for the gigging funk keyboardist the mark I stage, or mark II stage, with a stronger recommendation for a mark I stage. Any other questions, please send them my way! Glad to spread the love for playing the rhodes!
Micah -- 08/11/2004, 14:19:29 -- #6447
hepcat- Great post, very informative. Have you played any of the higher-end keyboards that emulate the Rhodes, and do you think it might be worth it to get one of those? It seems like they're much less of a pain, even if they initially cost more.
Gordon -- 08/11/2004, 15:00:54 -- #6449
Yeah thanks - great stuff, Hepcat. Can't wait to get one - will have to wait to learn to play it though ;) If anyone's interested there's a lot of info at http://www.fenderrhodes.com/
hepcatmonk -- 08/11/2004, 15:18:24 -- #6450
thanks. Gordon, absolutely correct, i forgot about that. The Rhodes Super Site is absolutely awesome and a great source for information. Micah - There's a community on Yahoo Groups called RHodes where they are constantly discussing the various advantages of Electric Pianos that emulate the rhodes. I haven't played any of the Latest-and-Greatest high end keyboards...of the keyboards i have played, a few of the higher end pianos from about one or two years ago, i was not impressed with a single Rhodes sound i heard on an electric piano. One thing I have been very impressed by: Scarbee's samples of Rhodes electric piano. I heard a sample once of an emulation. I guess it is a sample library that can be used with certain pianos. It is quite good. What I like about the rhodes, though, is that the touch is so close to that of a "real piano." It is balanced to feel like a real instrument. Plus, there's still an acoustic sound generation, not digital synthesis, so no keyboard will soudn as "good" as a Rhodes. If you're just worried about sound rather than feel, in a live situation i think the Scarbee samples would work absolutely fine, especially granted teh ease and convenience of not having to haul a heavy rhodes around. I don't really know anything at all about the latest keyboards...anybody willing to enlighten me about what the latest models are and their capabilities? I'm really curious, and i haven't thought about later keyboards in a long time; just vintage and acoustic. Anybody with information about some awesome electric pianos nowadays; i'd really appreciate it.
Dr. Whack -- 08/12/2004, 09:46:49 -- #6458
I've got an old beat up Stage you can have if you want it...I gave a friend a couple of tone bars and tines from the low end, but you can't beat the price... I toured with it back in the 80's and it is beat to hell...my dad kept it in his basement for years...the case is pretty much non-exesitant...and I no longer have the pedal assembly...I keep forgetting to put it out for the trash...so if you want it and catch me before the trash gets it....it's yours:) Otherwise, I would choose the digital ones if I were you...just about every keyboard I've played lately has an excellent Rhodes sound or two...or several...(Yamaha, Korg, Roland) they're lighter, they stay in tune (well, so do the real ones) and they never break tines
7 -- 08/12/2004, 10:44:30 -- #6462
Whacky, Parts are hard to find for Rhodes. Don't throw it away! Someone someday will be willing to pay a small fortune for original Rhodes parts. Remember your Spiderman #1 comic that your mom threw out when you went away to camp? I had a Stage 88 that I bought in 1977 and took with me to Europe. It served me well. I ended up selling it a few years later to a recording studio in Geneva for LOTS more than I bought it. The real charm of the Rhodes was that no two ever sounded alike. And every note had its own distinct personality due to the inability to perfectly set up the positioning of the tines in relationship to the pickup (coupled with the inability of them to stay in tune after driving down cobblestone streets). The digital electric pianos do not have that charm as they pretty much take the same sound and spread it across the board. I also liked the fact that if you beat the hell out of them that they go into overdrive distortion.
Dr. Whack -- 08/12/2004, 15:16:00 -- #6468
ha! thanks 7.... I think I paid 600 or 700 for it in 1974 or 75...I hate the thought of tossing it into a dumpster...it IS a piece of history, and you're right, each one had it's own sound and personality...mine actually sucked:) A friend of mine, (Jay Oliver - he now lives somewhere in Cal - do you know him?) had one that played and sounded fantastic...he sent his to Dyno My and had it beefed up...we took those damn things apart (mine and his) and tried to find out what they had done to it...and we couldn't see anything...I heard a rumor he sold his a while back for 50 bucks he he:) anyway, mine's just collecting dust and rusting away... if someome wants it they can have it...it really is trashed...only good for parts...maybe thanks for your concern:)
hepcatmonk -- 08/12/2004, 15:31:31 -- #6469
i think dyno my rhodes did a hammer tip replacement or something, but i'm not sure...i thouhgt there was also a new preamp? i dunno.
Billy -- 08/12/2004, 19:40:49 -- #6470
hey whacky, are you serious about the rhodes? Send me an email, maybe we can work somethin out: bmiller(at)apostolicchurch(dot)com
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