LearnJazzPiano.com archives: playing Flamenco/Spanish music

mooondancer -- 08/02/2004, 21:52:38 -- #6194

I recently listened to Miles' "Sketches of Spain", his tune Flamenco Sketches and some mariachi music.  What I'm wondering is what melodically and harmonically makes this music sound the way it does.  It has a very distinctive sound.   I've tried the harmonic minor scale but it sounds more like Hebrew music, and seems to oversimplify the Spanish style which is much more subtle. Some things I've tried are the dorian scale with a major seventh.  This has kind of a spanish flavor.  Also I play triads rhythmically over a major scale with raised 4 and 5.  I'm intrigued by this shit because Spanish music seems to have a chromatic movement that I just can't put my ear on, or find on the keyboard.

smg -- 08/02/2004, 22:00:28 -- #6195

There's a player named Chacky who shows up here from time to time that is also into this;I've posted a bunch of links in response to similar questions from him;use "search" and you'll find a lot of info..BTW the basis for this stuff is the Phrygian mode....

7 -- 08/02/2004, 22:40:32 -- #6199

Oft times the phyrgian will be altered when the major I is the current chord. Examples: E phrygian over most chords E F G A B C D E "E altered phrygian #1" over major I chord (5th mode of A minor Harmonic) E F G# A B C D E "E altered phrygian #2" over major I chord (I don't know the standard name of this Gypsy scale) E F G# A B C D# E "E altered phrygian #3" whenever you feel it's appropriate (I don't know the standard name for this scale either) E F G A B C D# E Remember that Flamenco was heavily influenced by the Moors who inhabited Spain for about a thousand years (until they were expelled in 1492). The Arabs tend to make a big deal  out of the minor third intervals in the abovementioned scales, whereas the Spanish tend to avoid that "jump" by centering their melody lines and solos inside the whole step/half step sections of the scales. If you use that Spanish technique, your solos will sound more Spanish and less Middle Eastern. During the three years I lived in Spain, I spent a lot of time hanging out with the Gypsies and intensely observing their playing. I don't claim to know everything about Flamenco, but there's no substitute for first-hand experience.

7 -- 08/03/2004, 10:04:33 -- #6219

Here are some very interesting Flamenco sites for you: http://www.guitarist.com/fg/fg.htm Flamenco transcriptions (with standard notation, tablature, MP3 audio files). Exercises, extensive beginner's resources and links to many other Flamenco sites. http://www.guitarsite.com/flamenco.htm Some theories on the origins of Flamenco. Lots of links to Flamenco related sites. http://members.aol.com/BuleriaChk/private/flamenco.html Flamenco lessons, analyses, forms. Basic Flamenco guitar & Flamenco theory.

docz -- 08/03/2004, 11:43:18 -- #6220

I don't know if this is the same as that Phrygian scale (Don't know theese greek scale thingis) but there is a guitar scale commonly called "Spanish Gypsy Scale" which is like this: http://www.nzmusician.co.nz/nzmusician/images/0403/BassEx1_2.jpg Maybe it helps :) Cheers! Doc-Z

mooondancer -- 08/03/2004, 14:09:10 -- #6222

Thank you -- the guitar sites are great. Some questions for 7:  When you say "E phrygian over most chords" do you mean to use it over dominant chords also?  And one of the altered phrygian scales for a major chord does not have a major seventh.  Is this part of the sound, as in not matching the 3rd and 7th normally found in certain chords? Also when you say "this scale over a major I chord", does this mean to play that scale over the whole 2-5-1 of that I chord?  Or do you change to the (altered) phrygian of each seperate chord?

7 -- 08/04/2004, 00:27:55 -- #6238

"When you say "E phrygian over most chords" do you mean to use it over dominant chords also?" Remember that the function of "Dominance" is to push you into the tonic. Many modes have dominant chords which are not built off the fifth degree. So, if you are speaking of the V chord, the answer is probably no. You'd be more likely to use the altered phyrgian that has the raised 7th (maj3rd of the V). If you are talking about the Dominant of the phrygian (which is the bII Major chord) the answer is yes. "One of the altered phrygian scales for a major chord does not have a major seventh.  Is this part of the sound, as in not matching the 3rd and 7th normally found in  certain chords?" The "natural" seventh for the phrygian mode is b7. Consequently it is always consonant. "When you say 'this scale over a major I chord', does this mean to play that scale over the whole 2-5-1 of that  I chord?" Who said anything about 2-5-1? The 2-5-1 change is by no means a popular chord sequence in that style. "Or do you change to the (altered) phrygian of each separate chord?" Consider that you have the following options, as the feel hits you: E F G G# A B C D D# E There are nine basic notes to choose from. Consider the leading tone function in your choices. What is the next chord? Which note is the best lead-in for the initial chord tone you will choose in the new chord? These are your melodic considerations (which of course differ with every progression).

albetan -- 08/04/2004, 14:01:40 -- #6256

The scale used in flamenco and gypsy music in Spain, mentioned here by Doc-Z as "Spanish gypsy scale", and explained by 7 in his post, is: E F G# A B C D E Sometimes 7th may be raised: E F G# A B C D# E It corresponds to scales called by 7 "E altered phrygian 1 and  2" That scale came in Europe by Moors from Arabian.  That is the Arabic scale. That scale appears in all Mediterranean Culture, so is characteristic in Hebrew, Hasidic, Sephardic, Gypsy, Morish, Turkish, Arabian folk music and also in Indian music. If you like to sound in a more spanish flamenco "andaluz" style take that scale E F G# A B C D E as a I grade, harmonizing it with E chord. Combine it with Bm7b5 as a  dominant  chord (Vm7b5), in its root position or in inversion Bm7b5/F, and Am as a subdominant chord (IVm). So you have 3 primary chords: tonic, dominant and subdominant to harmonize the arabic or spanish gypsy scale. Sometimes you may play a pedal E in dominant chord: Bm7b5/E. Try it, improvising something in in that scale over those chords and you are sounding with spanish "Andaluz" flavor. And so Moondancer will understand why is sounding as Hebrew music. It's the same scale. Good luck

mooondancer -- 08/04/2004, 22:43:33 -- #6262

7 -- Thanks for the responses.  I think my mistake was thinking too much in terms of harmony & chord changes when this style is much more melodic.  Many of the transcriptions on the guiatr sites you gave me have no chord changes at all.  A whole song is in E, A, or C.  I've tried playing triads over the phrygian scales and I'm finding some very interesting sounds. I love this, working with all this new stuff.  I was playing a mambo in G with a group today... I played triads in my left and started playing rhythmic bits from the phrygian scale.  Nobody knew what the hell was going on.

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