LearnJazzPiano.com archives: arpeggio or comp chord for IIm-9.

mooondancer -- 08/03/2004, 14:22:50 -- #6223

When I play minor 2-5-1s I find that I don't have a real comp chord to play in my left hand, or arpeggio to play in the right.  I just play the scale and hit a 1-7 in the left hand until I get to the V chord.  My problem is that I can't find anything effective. On the first chord of 2-5 progression  | Dm-5 | G7-9 | Cm7 |  , I have tried a rootless F-(Ab)-C-Eb, the 3,5,7,9 of the chord.  Problem is, this voicing is the same as a rootless Db major, so it has a major sound instead of the dark minor that I want.   I've also tried hitting an Ab13 chord (tritone sub) and playing the same altered D minor scale over it.  However, making a substitution seems like sidestepping the issue. What do all of you do on the 2 of a minor 2-5?

jmjelder -- 08/03/2004, 14:34:25 -- #6224

Try using the sixth (D) instead of the b7 (Eb) in the example Fm chord.  See if you like that better. Joe

smg -- 08/03/2004, 15:16:12 -- #6229

MD-use "search" on the old forum and you'll find-

smg -- 08/03/2004, 15:18:58 -- #6230

a lot of stuff about this subject,going into detail re-voicings......

smg -- 08/03/2004, 15:21:36 -- #6231

BTW,my advice to you would be to determine what sound you want to use for the basic cadence involved(V-i)and then look at all the options built off the dom7,the iim7b5 being one,with era-specific harmonic/melodic concepts..........

7 -- 08/04/2004, 00:08:34 -- #6236

Unless I have a good reason to include the 9th in a half-diminished chord, I don't. Does Dm-5 = Dm7b5 = DŲ7 ? If so, then like Joe said, voice it F Ab C D

sid -- 08/04/2004, 02:25:11 -- #6242

You could use rootless 3-note LH figures, thus (reading bottom up from the left): Dmi7b5: G Ab C G7: Bb B Eb Cmi: A Bb D sid

Jazz+ -- 08/05/2004, 10:46:34 -- #6278

The 9th is E not Eb, that's part of your problem. Popular left hand voicngs for D-7 b5 : F Ab C E (4 note rootless voicng) F Ab C D  (root isbtead of 9th, less tension) D G Ab C  (uses the 11th)   G Ab C   (sparser verson of above voicing)

Jazz+ -- 08/05/2004, 10:49:12 -- #6279

Scale choices: Locrian (7th mode of Eb major) D Eb F G Ab Bb C Locian #2 (6th mode of F Melodic Minor) D E F G Ab Bb C

mooondancer -- 08/05/2004, 16:45:51 -- #6291

Fine ideas...  Simplify the voicing is a smart thing to do because it has more power that way.  That's some pretty strange shit you're doing, Sid.  But I like it. Jazz+ -- the 9th should be Eb because it's the II chord of a minor I.  There's  a flat 9.  Of course in a minor 2-5 the tonality of the turnaround doesn't always match the tonality of the I chord... that's just the way I was thinking here.  I could do a IIminor/major7 - V7#11, which is one tonality, and go to I dorian minor, another tonality.

Max Angelo -- 08/05/2004, 18:29:46 -- #6295

Sid's voicing have the peculiarity to be "parallel" ie the voicing for Dm7b5 is moved a minor 3rd up to play the G7#9b13 ( we can say it "altered" ) and then go down 1/2 tone to play the Cm7 chord. You can play the G7 chord ( as altered ) moving a minor third up the voicing suggested by Jazz+ too or, viceversa, you can move a minor third down any G7 alt voicing to play Dm7b5. The 3rd voicing proposed by Jazz+ is really a rootless Bb7 ... you can play the alternate rootless voicing too ie Ab C D G. Last thing, I must admit that my first preference for minor tonic chord is not with minor 7th but Cm6 or Cm(maj7) or Cm6/9 :)

sid -- 08/06/2004, 01:52:09 -- #6305

I'm glad you liked my "strange" voicings, MD, though I'd have thought they're pretty conventional.  It's a kind of Bill Evans trick to find a combination of notes from your chord/scale that puts a minor second interval right at the bottom.  It gives a kind of rub that the ear perceives as a certain harmonic richness, even if the chord only has three notes in it.  As Max points out, it also allows you to exploit parallelism, where the same basic shape can be moved around the keyboard to fit with any of the important chord classes - maj, mi, 7, mi7b5 etc. sid

7 -- 08/06/2004, 16:01:17 -- #6326

Moondancer, It looks like you need to study a little more theory. You wrote (to Jazz+) re: Dm7b5 ( D F Ab C ) "the 9th should be Eb because it's the II chord of a minor I. There's  a flat 9." The designation "9" always indicates a major 9th from the root. Dm9b5 = D F Ab C E Dm7b5b9 = D F Ab C Eb A half-diminished is not always the ii of a minor i. It is also commonly found as an "altered" minor chord. The b5 does not change the function of the chord significantly, but it does give it more "bite". Apologies to Jazz+. Maybe you wanted to make this correction yourself, but for the sake of any novice misunderstanding Moondancer's erroneous claims, I wanted to clear this up as soon as possible.

CynBad -- 08/06/2004, 17:09:49 -- #6327

Standard LH rootless voicings for D half-dim7 G-Ab-C-F or C-F-Ab The 9 is usually quite dissonant, just depends on where you put it

hepcatmonk -- 08/07/2004, 03:37:05 -- #6336

i like quartal voicings. try this: left-->up (in c minor) iib5 -- ab d g V -- f b e i -- eb a d or...if you want to comp two chords per... (this G is the G right below middle C) iib5 -- G C F         Ab D G V -- Bb Eb Ab      B F Bb i -- C F Bb      Bb Eb A i prefer the two chord comping...it sounds hip, and the chromaticism is cool. I like your voicing, sid. Also...if you're playing rootless chords, one thing i love doing in the minor ii-V-i is playing F Bb B Eb (rootless Db13 chord) for G. this sounds ESPECIALLY cool if you play a rootless Ab13 (Gb Bb C F) as a substitute for the Dmb5. the subsitution is totally OK, i think. it's best to mix it up. whether or not you use the 9 really depends on teh context, and the tune. personally, i'd only throw the 9 into the ii voicing if i was going to emphasize it in an improvised line.

mooondancer -- 08/07/2004, 15:24:01 -- #6345

7 - Whenever I see a chord symbol on the page, I think first of the scale it's coming from.  To me, in the progression | Dm-5 | G7-13 | Cm |, the D chord is the ii of a C natural minor: D Eb F G Ab Bb C D.  Therefore it has a flat five and a flat nine.  So my voicing for the chord includes the flat 9.  Or incluDED; I have some new voicings now... If I saw Dm-5 BY ITSELF on the page, OR if the chord was Dm9-5, my interpretation would be different.  Then it would have a natural 9.

mooondancer -- 08/07/2004, 15:32:05 -- #6346

hepcatmonk, the quartal voicings moving chromatically is super-hip.  I have used your substitution of Ab13 on the ii chord, while continuing to play the D half-diminished scale underneath.  I like the sound of two tonalities at once. Your "substitution" of Db13 on the v chord turns out to be a normal voicing for that chord anyway ... the 7, #9, 3, and -13 of a G7-13 v chord.  You can exploit this by realizing that a G7-13 chord is the same chord as Db13... play the same chord and have two scales to choose from.

7 -- 08/07/2004, 15:37:08 -- #6347

I have never seen a Dm-5 BY ITSELF. Has someone written a song like that? LOL Whenever I see a chord symbol on a page, I think of the chords preceding it and the chords following in order to get a full picture of the entire progression and current tonal center. Depending on the context of the chord, I will decide how I want to deal with it (horizontal scalar soloing, vertical chordal soloing, tried and true riff soloing, etc.) The BIG picture is what counts, not what scales or scale degrees could be *theoretically* played over chord X.

Jazz+ -- 08/07/2004, 15:49:12 -- #6348

I am correct in saying do  play 9, not b9, in a voicing for a D-7 b5. You can play b9 in the scale runs but if you put in the chord you will sound bad. Most popular LH voicings: F Ab C E F Ab C D D Ab C D G Ab C G Ab C

mooondancer -- 08/07/2004, 20:45:25 -- #6351

7 - shit, man, I didn't mean BY ITSELF, I meant not in a 2-5-1 context.  Night In Tunisia has an Em-5 BY ITSELF at the beginning of the interlude.  And who's talking about "theoretical"?  All I'm saying is how I look at a minor 2-5-1. Don't put me down man -- I know how to play.

Max Angelo -- 08/07/2004, 21:59:55 -- #6352

Am I the onlyone to think that minor tonic first choice is from ascending melodic minor scale? Could explain me please why I am wrong ?

sid -- 08/08/2004, 11:02:48 -- #6359

Well Max, it might be - it might not.  As ever, it's a context thing.  For example, in the voicings I suggested above for C mi II V I, C melodic minor would not "fit" the form of I in that progression.  Voicing a minor chord as if it's a sort of sus4 (in this case as an inverted Bbmaj7 over a C in the root) makes the minor third in the associated scale (Eb in this example) ambiguous, and isn't very compatible with the maj 7 step in C ascending melodic minor.   The basic quartal voicing of C mi (C F Bb Eb G) is also not very compatible with this scale.  Personally, I take the fuzziness of these rules to be an invitation to play a little bit outside even when the piece might look too rigid harmonically to be messed with like that.  Exploring the fuzziness seems to work better for me (and is more of an incentive to practice!) than mechanically grinding through strict rules associating this chord with that scale or mode. sid

Kai -- 08/08/2004, 12:26:24 -- #6362

Good advice again from you guys.  It helps us lurkers a lot.  Back to my 3-note rootless voicings. Kai

7 -- 08/08/2004, 13:53:56 -- #6363

Moondancer, My apologies if I have offended you. My "LOL" after that sentence was meant to indicate tongue-in-cheek humor to defuse any potential misunderstandings. I do not come to this forum to make enemies. In many ways I visualize these threads to be a form of master class, where people are discussing various issues in front of an audience. In other words, many lurkers with perhaps neither the knowledge, skill or courage to join in the discussions read everything that we say here. If there is a cloudy issue that needs clarification, and no one has addressed it to my satisfaction, I'll put in my two cents worth - For the lurkers' benefit. As a corollary to my apology, let me state that "anything that CAN be misunderstood, WILL be misunderstood". And we should all strive to avoid that in our writings here.

Max Angelo -- 08/08/2004, 14:20:55 -- #6365

Sid, thank you for your reply. I asked just becouse I noticed every tonic exemple voicing above was with minor 7th, first hepcatmonk exemple apart. I understand what you mean, thank you for sharing your point of view. Yes, probably my vision of the things is not so open: I tend to play m7, or sus7 in II V major contest but when i can ( and a minor tonic chord is a good chance ) I switch to the darker minor sound :) Btw all the afternoon was playing on minor II V I using various voicing and related scales, agree that exploration is a good way to improve !!!

Jazz+ -- 08/08/2004, 14:44:10 -- #6367

| ii-7 b5  | V7 alt  |  i-   | "ii V i in minor" You can play over that i- with melodic minor, Dorian minor or any other minor scale you like. A jazz pianists has many alternatives. The Dorian will sound less dissonant than the melodic minor. You can switch back and forth between choruses. It's like a painter tinting his blue with different shades. C- (i-) with melodic minor C D Eb F G A B C- (i-) with Dorian melodic minor C D Eb F G A Bb

mooondancer -- 08/08/2004, 15:40:50 -- #6373

7 -- it's cool... I got all heated up for some reason. I like that, a painter tinting his blue with different shades.  When I'm playing strict changes I use an 8-note scale, adding the major 7 to a natural minor scale.  This agrees strictly with all the qualities of the chords in the progression: C D Eb F G Ab Bb B.  You have the b5 on the II chord, and a b9, #9, and major 3 on the V chord, among other things.  But like Jazz+ is saying, you don't always have to agree strictly, and you can find lots of hipper shades.

Jazz+ -- 08/08/2004, 19:18:28 -- #6379

Let me quote from Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book page 75: "Unlike the ii V I in a  major key, (D-7, G7, C Maj 7, in the key of C major), a minor ii V i usually consists of a half-diminished chord, an alt chord, and a minor-major  chord (D-7 b5, G7 alt, C- Maj 7). And , unlike the major ii V I, in which all three chords are derived from the same key (D-7, G7, and C Maj 7 are all from C major), the three chords in a minor ii V i are derived from three different melodic minor scales. The notes played over the D-7 b5 chord are from the F melodic minor scale, the notes played over the G7 alt chord are from the Ab melodic minor, and the notes played over the C- Maj 7 are from C melodic minor. Again, this is radically different from a ii V I in a major key, where all three chords share the same scale. Wouldn't it be great if there was a scale that worked over D-7 b5, G7 alt, C-mja7 ? It would be, but there isn't one. The harmonic minor  scale is often mentioned in theory books as beng "a scale played over a minor ii V i". If that were true you would hear the great players playing it a lot, but they don't. We'll show why, and also expand on the harmonic minor scale in  Chapter 23."

jmjelder -- 08/08/2004, 20:55:11 -- #6382

Very interesting thread! It shows how once we have some experience playing in a minor key allows much stylistic individuality,  much more than Levine's apparent dogmatic approach to this subject.   If I were to adopt a dogmatic approach or one for a beginner to start with I would suggest using the tonic natural minor for the sub-dominant chords (iim7b5 and ivm), tonic harmonic minor for the dominant V7 chord and the jazz minor (ascending melodic minor) for the tonic  im chord. For clarity that would be the C natural minor for the Dm7b5 or Fm, the C harmonic minor for the G7b9 and, of course, the C jazz minor for the CmMaj7 or Cm6. Three different minor scales for the three different chord functions. Once the player has those sounds in his head and under his fingers and undertakes further study into the other possibilities then finally (if not sooner) the ear takes over completely and the player makes his own personal statement. Joe

Jazz+ -- 08/08/2004, 21:30:01 -- #6383

Why play scales with avoid notes when you can play scales without them? Levine is pointing out the scales the a many of the great modern players use (Herbie Hancock, Joe Henderson, Woody Shaw, Freddy Hubbard, etc.) because they do not have any "avoid notes" in them.

sid -- 08/09/2004, 02:14:03 -- #6385

Just one more contribution from me to this very interesting thread.  On Saturday's gig, someone asked the singer for Summertime (*groan*) and as we trudged through it my mind wandered back to this discussion and I realised that no-one seems to have mentioned the Gershwin trick for the tonic minor, namely to rock back and forth between 6 and 7 half-diminished.  In C mi, this would be Ami7b5/Bmi7b5.  This is nicely compatible with the ascending melodic minor, offers yet another option for voicing the tonic minor and can be used ironically as a sort of "harmonic quotation". Why do they ALWAYS ask for Summertime??  I swear, one day I'll run amok wielding the jawbone of an ass. sid

Barry -- 08/09/2004, 03:38:46 -- #6388

Sid, I know how you feel!  I got the inevitable 'Take Five' request at a wedding yesterday.  If it's not one it's the other! I was also asked for 'Stranger On The Shore' but you've got to draw the line somewhere! I sometimes think that people ask for these tunes because they're the only 'jazz' tunes they know of.  Why they feel the need to ask for them I don't know - I guess we should just smile politely, trundle through them and think of the money.... My bass player's theory  on what most people want from musicians is: 'Play something we know quite loud'. It's hard to disagree with him sometimes!   Barry

jmjelder -- 08/09/2004, 15:31:31 -- #6400

Hi Jazz+ You asked: "Why play scales with avoid notes when you can play scales without them?". The short answer is because as you obviously know and said earlier in this thread above "It's like a painter tinting his blue with different shades.", a fine quote which explains a lot of what jazz playing is all about. In saying the scale notes for the m7b5 chord are from the melodic minor scale Levine is only allowing one shade of blue, the melodic minor scale and not even the correct one in MHO. Joe

mooondancer -- 08/09/2004, 17:43:02 -- #6404

The Gershwin trick is interesting... I'm surprised he was doing something that strange at that time, before even the bebop era.  For clarification I'll write out the notes in those two half-diminished scales: Ami7b5b9   A Bb C D Eb F G A Bmi7b5b9   B C D E F G A B Another way to see it is "rocking back and forth" between the I Dorian and I Major modes.  This is hip anyway... I like the sound of combining two scales by playing lines implying one or the other close together.  It's like swirling oil and water together. You can also try alternating I Dorian with the 7#11 scale a half-step up.  You can just do it straight over the 2-5, or make a few substitutions:  instead of Dm-5 G7alt Cm7,  do Abm-maj7, Db7#11 (modes of each other) to Cm7.

Max Angelo -- 08/09/2004, 17:54:01 -- #6406

You can see the Am7b5 Bm7b5  in Cm in a different way too: Am7b5 is a inversion of Cm6 ( tonic chord )and Bm7b5 is a voicing for G7(9). So the hamonic pattern is I V I V and you can play melodic minor over both the chords.

sid -- 08/10/2004, 01:20:45 -- #6413

Max's analysis is the the one I had in mind.  Moon's approach supports an earlier point I made, about the ambiguity of Eb (and, for that matter, Bb) in lines related to more complex chords on C minor tonic.  This what I meant by fuzziness.  It takes a fair amount of nerve to overcome the taboo about playing E natural against a C mi chord, or a Bb against C mi maj7, but it can work if you believe in it and play with conviction.  I wonder if it's significant that the notes that come in the cracks between Eb and E and between Bb and B are the blue notes in the scale of C. sid

Max Angelo -- 08/10/2004, 13:06:06 -- #6426

Speaking about scales "against" the chords, an example could be, in the Am7b5 Bm7b5 thing in Cm, something so: Play the Am7b5 as Cm6 in first inversion ( Eb G A C ) and the Bm7b5 as a Dm6 in first inversion ( F A G D ). These are basic 6th voicing but you can "enlarge" them, ie moving the top note one step up over the melodic scale. So doing the voicings are Eb G A D and F A B Eb. The F A B Eb voicing could be a chord in "augmented harmony" too, so why not to play Cm scale over the the Cm6/9 and the esatonic over the G7/9/b13 and the esatonic you can play ( G A B Db Eb F ) is without C and D !!! Again about the quality of tonic minor chord and minor II V I an approach could be playing Gsus7/b9 instead Dm7b5 and G7, in this open and modal contest probably a voicing as Bb Eb G A for Cm could be the best choice for my "old ears" too ;) Last thing: jmjelder scales are very nice and, theory  apart, when i check what i am playing for really lol, I see often i use jmjelder scales. Nice too to add a chromatic passage in the melodic minor between the 5th and the 6th ( bebop minor scale ) Thank you for the contributions of everyone, it is an interesting topic :)

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