| LearnJazzPiano.com archives: ancient minor scale | |
| elwapo -- 08/04/2004, 06:49:00 -- #6247 | |
| Hi all! I,ve been working through hanon books 1 and 2 and I have been drilling through both major and harmonic minor scales but I havn't touched on the old (melodic) minor scales which ascend with a minor third and descend with a minor 6th and 7th and minor 3rd. What I,d love to know is whether or not this scale is used in jazz. I read through mark levines book and he never mentions this scale so I just kind of ignored it. I dont really understand why a scale should ascend one way and descend in another. I,d appreciate any advice on this subject. Great site by the way.....cheers in advance...elwapo! | |
| albetan -- 08/04/2004, 07:24:44 -- #6248 | |
| Minor scales used in jazz are the modes on II, II and VI grades of diatonic scale. When you improvise on intervals, you play minor chord notes and any other notes as passing sounds... so you may use somtimes your ancient minor scale. You may use any of 12 chromatic notes as passing sounds while looking for chord notes. See files "Beginning to improvise" "Beginning modal scales" at Albetan's for more info. | |
| albetan -- 08/04/2004, 07:26:15 -- #6249 | |
| Sorry: "Minor scales used in jazz are the modes on II, III and VI grades of diatonic scale." | |
| 7 -- 08/04/2004, 09:34:17 -- #6251 | |
| The reason that the melodic minor ascends with a raised 7th is for the leading tone. You don't need a leading tone if your melody line is descending, therefore the b6 & b7 of the Aeolian. For more on minors and their chords, see: http://www.JeffreeBrent.com/Lessons/minors.html In Jazz, the ascending melodic minor is known as the "Jazz minor". Many of its modes are very useful in Jazz. | |
| elwapo -- 08/04/2004, 09:38:20 -- #6252 | |
| Thanks Albetan. I was looking at youre file on extended arpeggios and its great , thanks a mil. So its a good idea play these arpeggios including the raised 4th on major7 and dominant7 chords. Should I learn them without these raised tones also? (daunting!). I,m not even going to try and approach improvising without working through all these tools. You dont happen to have the fingerings listed for these extended arpeggios by any chance or should I play them the way I feel comfortable? Thanks again for your kind advice..elwapo. | |
| elwapo -- 08/04/2004, 09:40:28 -- #6253 | |
| Thanks for that 7! I,ll check that site out tonight when I get some time! | |
| albetan -- 08/04/2004, 13:04:57 -- #6254 | |
| Hi elwapo: "You dont happen to have the fingerings listed for these extended arpeggios by any chance or should I play them the way I feel comfortable?" I don't like fingering numbers in every note... You have said the golden rule: "I play them the way i feel confortable." "Should I learn them without these raised tones also?" Yes... It's optional to play sharp 11th or natural 11th. Sharp 11th sounds more tension. (no 4th... 11th is same as a 4th over an octave) | |
| Peteboypete -- 08/04/2004, 13:44:56 -- #6255 | |
| Mark Levine spends a good deal of time in The Jazz Theory Book talking about the modes of the melodic minor scale. As 7 said, only the ascending part is used (because the descending is just natural minor). The scale and its modes are used on many of the altered chords (like the fourth mode is used over a 7(#4) chord). Hope that helps. | |
| elwapo -- 08/05/2004, 02:59:45 -- #6266 | |
| Sure does help! thanks guys | |
| Dr. Whack -- 08/05/2004, 07:31:06 -- #6269 | |
| to play devil's advocate...scales are not a required first step to improvising. After all, am I improvising if I'm playing scales? Matching scales to chords is an excerise but is not improvisation. I'm concerned about your comment: "I,m not even going to try and approach improvising without working through all these tools." I think you do yourself a disservice approaching improv in that way. Start with using your ear to play simple tunes, like "Twinkle Twinkle", in different keys. The object is to develop a relationship between your head, ears, fingers and keyboard... just experiment and have some fun~ | |
| CynBad -- 08/05/2004, 18:25:57 -- #6294 | |
| The melodic minor scale is use HEAVILY in jazz, but only in its ascending form. It's used in minor key tunes. The natural minor scale is found in the aolean mode (vi) of the Major scale. The harmonic minor scale is not found anywhere in nature. | |
| elwapo -- 08/06/2004, 02:29:26 -- #6307 | |
| When you say that the harmonic minor scale is not found anywhere in nature do you mean that it has a minor 3rd interval and it doesn't sound natural? Thanks for that Cynbad, so for jazz i,m just going to practice the melodicic minor scale (ascending form) and major scales and all my modes. Thanks... | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/06/2004, 08:05:50 -- #6318 | |
| Mark levine once said he basicaly uses four scales: Major Diminished Minor Major (ascending melodic minor) Whole Tone | |
| CynBad -- 08/06/2004, 09:51:32 -- #6319 | |
| Well, actually, the melodic minor scale isn't found anywhere in nature either. Only the Natural Minor (relative minor or Aolean of a Major scale), that's the one that was used descending from the Melodic minor in classical theory. In jazz, just use the Melodic Minor and study what kind of altered chords are built upon each tone. That way, when you see an altered chord symbol, you can figure out what scale that chord actually comes from, and use it for improvisation. I just attended a workshop where we had a class with Jay Thomas on How to Play on Changes. He went into great depth about how to determine what scale a particular chord might have come from. He said we should learn these four scales and woodshed the hell out of them: Major Harmonic Minor - yes, some chords are derived from this one Melodic Minor Diminished He also stressed learning major and minor pentatonics as an easy way to get around "avoid" notes, and also to avoid playing the "blues scale" too much. | |
| elwapo -- 08/06/2004, 17:57:39 -- #6328 | |
| Thanks a mil for that advice Cynbad, thats sent me in a positive direction. All I gotta do now is figure out how to use the scales. I,ve been spending most of my time either drilling the A/B rootless voings or playing through hanon exercises. I do other exercises such as moving so-what and fourth voicings diatonically up the major scales and I,m about to look at upper structures and all but I feel as if I,m taking a bit too much on too soon. Thanks again Cynbad... | |
| CynBad -- 08/07/2004, 15:08:48 -- #6344 | |
| It does take a lot of practicing to learn all this stuff. I can't recommend Randy Halberstadt's book highly enough - it will help you learn how to practice and how to learn all this stuff, and really get it down cold. | |
| 7 -- 08/08/2004, 14:31:11 -- #6366 | |
| There are many artificial scales that are used all the time in all kinds of music: WTs, dims, alt phygians, etc. artificial = "not a greek mode" (Please note that the Dorian is ALSO a natural minor scale. And it gets used a lot more than people give it credit.) To say "not found in nature" sounds a bit wierd to me. What's found in nature is the overtone series. It is my understanding that "the pentatonic" 5-note scale is a much older scale than the "do re mi" 7-note scale. Consequently I consider "the pentatonic" to be a MORE NATURAL scale than the Greek gammes. Which is to say, I consider the "do re mi" 7-note scale to be a supra-set of (ie. addition to) "the pentatonic". I also consider the 12-note tempered chromatic scale to be a supra-set of the two above-mentioned scales. I've heard many Jazz musicians say "There is only one scale - 'The Chromatic' and everything else is simply a sub-set of that scale." IMHO those who repeat such drivel are totally ignoring the evolution of music. Using the same logic applied to microtonal musics, one could say "All scales are simply derived from the 24-tone microtonal scale". Yeah, right... | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/08/2004, 14:46:45 -- #6368 | |
| Mark Levine says he does not play the Harmonic Minor scale. | |
| Dr. Whack -- 08/08/2004, 14:58:41 -- #6369 | |
| once again, I'm reduced to drivel:) To be argumentative, (isn't that the purpose of a forum like this?) today's western music is based on the well-tempered scale, which is a major part of the evolution of music. It's true that jazz was started using pitches that are in between the chosen twelve, but IMHO, the concept of "only one scale, chromatic" seems to me to be valid, especially when you consider we are playing a piano which is tuned to the well-tempered 12 tone scale, without the ability to bend pitches. All modes are then a subset...blah blah blah | |
| elwapo -- 08/08/2004, 15:56:23 -- #6374 | |
| Randy Halberstadt! Sounds like an interesting book cynbad, whats the name of the book please so I can buy it. Thanks again and to "7" and "Artist formerly known as p" | |
| CynBad -- 08/08/2004, 16:30:58 -- #6375 | |
| The Book is called Metaphors for the Musician | |
| CynBad -- 08/08/2004, 16:33:27 -- #6376 | |
| Hey y'all, my "not found in nature" remark was tongue-in-cheek. I meant it was not found in the major scale, so it has no "key signature". The Aolean scale is referred to as the "natural minor" in classical theory. It is the relative minor played in its natural form, without the raised 7. | |
| albetan -- 08/09/2004, 09:21:11 -- #6391 | |
| Hi CynBad: When you play an aeolean scale, your are performing a VI mode of Diatonic C scale. If you are playing Am as a VI mode of C, use natural 7th. If you are playing Am as a minor tonic I, use raised 7th. Please see these files at albetan's: "Chord Progressions". There you will see the Diatonic minor circle. "Harmonic exercise 3" about diatonic circles. | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/09/2004, 10:58:44 -- #6394 | |
| Look in the Old "Real Book" at "Sea Journey" by Chick Corea. It is a tune using mostly A Aeolian minor. It has that European ECM jazz sound, not a bebop sound at all. | |
| Dr. Whack -- 08/09/2004, 15:53:30 -- #6401 | |
| Hi Albetan, Be careful how you explain this...your first statement, "When you play an aeolean scale, your are performing a VI mode of Diatonic C scale." is misleading...an aeolian mode can be the VI of any major scale, not just C and a minor tonic scale will not necessarily have a raised 7th...only if you are using the "harmonic" form. It's true the harmonic form is the most common, but it is not a given. There are plent of minor tunes that are not using the harmonic form. Sorry to be picky, but I don't want people to be confused:) | |
| CynBad -- 08/09/2004, 16:05:58 -- #6403 | |
| Albetan, I hadn't even addressed the tonic minor, but in jazz it's often the melodic minor that is used. The Harmonic minor is used more in classical theory for a tonic minor. However, neither actually corresponds to and actual KEY (key signature). They both contain altered tones. | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/09/2004, 18:14:41 -- #6407 | |
| In "Sea Journey" by Chick Corea the A- Aeolean acts as a minor tonic scale (it happens to also be the same notes as the vi mode of C) | |
| CynBad -- 08/12/2004, 10:04:30 -- #6460 | |
| A minor is the relative minor of C major. It has the same key signature. Of course it is the tonic minor. It would be in classical music too. It's an art. You can do whatever you want, as long as it "works". | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/12/2004, 12:13:14 -- #6465 | |
| Mark Levine does discuss the Aeolian Mode on pages 52-53 in "The Jazz Theory Book." | |
| Jazz+ -- 08/12/2004, 12:16:14 -- #6466 | |
| Levine says Aeolian chords are rarely played. He mentions some examples of Aeolian being used on the bridges of Milestones, Ain't Misbehavin, and also in Kenny Barron's "Sunshower." | |
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