LearnJazzPiano.com archives: different ways of thinking?

time to talk -- 11/08/2004, 04:37:24 -- #8744

Dear All i recenly took on a task that i have dreaded and been avoiding for many months.. 'learning one of the tunes i know 'IN ALL 12 KEYS' anyway,, so far i am up to 3 keys and looking forward to learning the tune in more keys.. my Quesion is regarding how you guys think of the melody notes when you are learning songs in a different key: please see the example below; i am in the Key of 'G' in the first bar, i play the (I) chord; melody notes are G then D in the second bar, i play the (IV) chord; melody notes are E then F#,G,A, in the third bar, i play a (III minor) chord; melody notes are D then B,D,E so, how do you look at the melody? for instance.. are you thinking ' i'm playing the (I) chord 'G' in the first bar and my melody notes are the root(G) and the 5th(D), now i'm in the second bar playing the (IV) chord 'C' and my melody notes are 3rd(E), sus4(F#), 5th (G) and 6th(A). or maybe you think only in terms of the temporary key center.. i.e. I'm in the first bar and i need to play the root of G and then the 5th (D) of G, and now i'm in the Second bar and i need to play the 6th(E) then 7th(F#) then root(G) then second(A) of the key of G and so on.... i know this seems a bit analytical but it has only come up since i have tried to learn a tune in more than one key... none of that mattered when i only played tunes in one key as all i needed to do was remember where my hands went, now things are different

Barry -- 11/08/2004, 08:08:22 -- #8755

Well, you know how the tune should go so it is often easiest to 'play it by ear' whilst being aware of the melody notes that are chord tones. So think maybe; Bar 1 - root to fifth Bar 2 - up the scale starting on the third of the chord Bar 3 - all chord tones, starting on the seventh. If you know where the chord tones are, just use your ear to fill in the rest.  If you don't know the melody well enough to do that then make sure you learn it first before you start to take it through the keys. Ideally you should note the chord tones in all melodies in this way as you learn them for the first time because, not only will it make it easier to play them in a different key, but you will be able to memorise the tune a lot quicker. I hope that you find this useful...

Barry -- 11/08/2004, 08:09:28 -- #8756

In fact thinking about it, the only non-chord tone in the first three bars is the G in bar 2! What tune is it by the way?

Barry -- 11/08/2004, 08:11:12 -- #8757

Oops, didn't spot the E in bar 2! So bar 2 should be 'Up the scale, starting on the ninth of the chord' I'm sure you get the idea anyway.....

marksdg -- 11/08/2004, 15:25:26 -- #8766

I usually try to get the tune by ear, but think of some notes in terms of relation to the local chord (during that bar). I have really only transposed simple tunes, like Misty and blues tunes.  Since I usually play solo, transposing tunes is mainly to add variety.

docz -- 11/08/2004, 17:12:48 -- #8769

I tend to think in +'s and -'s.. I know the melody, just play it in the key native to me, then I think "ok let's do everything +3" and I just move my hands three semitones up and play it there... and I practice (by ear) until I get it right, then I add the chords... for chords I think numbers, 1, 2, 5 and so on. Doc-Z

albetan -- 11/08/2004, 18:34:29 -- #8771

People with a good ear may transpose a tune easy. If you must think while playing, change in your mind notes by numbers and chords by roman numerals. Speaking about melody: C  D  E  F  G  A  B   1  2  3  4  5  6  7 Transposing to G:1  2  3  4  5  6  7 G  A  B  C  D  E  F# Speaking about chords: CM7  Dm7  Em7  FM7  G7  Am7  Bm7b5 I    II   III  IV   V   VI   VII Transposing to G: I    II   III  IV   V   VI   VII GM7  Am7  Bm7  CM7  D7  Em7  F#m7b5 In a tonality I and IV chords are always major; II, III and VI minor; V dominant seventh; and VII halfdiminished. So you may use roman numerals alone, except when a modulation appears like II7  VM7. Then you may write the new tonality in parenthesis : (G) V  I.

albetan -- 11/08/2004, 18:41:52 -- #8772

Sorry! Please correct: Transposing to G: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 G  A  B  C  D  E  F#

CynBad -- 11/09/2004, 18:12:06 -- #8799

I think of it as scale tones, and also by hearing the intervals.

time to talk -- 11/11/2004, 02:20:41 -- #8833

thanks for all the ideas guys. i suspected that there would be more than one way of looking at things. the chord tones idea i never thought of that one, though i've heard and read the point many many times. with the scale tones idea this  means i really have to know what scales i am playing,, which will take time to learn but i really think it's worth it in the end because i will have a really deep knowlege of the tune(knowlege that i can use in my other tunes) most of these ideas seem connected in one way or the other, such as roman numerals as they help me in constructing the individual chords in different keys.... well i guess i'll spend the next couple of months on one or two tunes, putting into practice some of the ideas here..... By the way if any of you wanted to know the tune. it's a ballad by Oscar Peterson; very sparse playing but very emotional and beautiful, one he wrote in recent years called WHEN SUMMER COMES. i have learned so  much from it just by learning it in more than one key... TTT

alhaynes -- 11/11/2004, 08:19:14 -- #8845

This is a very ambitious undertaking ! I find that I play in different styles in different keys. For instance, I play one song in B - and it is a very minimalist arrangement. The same song in C or Eb gets pretty dense.   Where did find "When Summer Comes"? It's not listed in iTunes as recorded by OP. Al

time to talk -- 11/11/2004, 08:40:23 -- #8847

alhaynes http://umusic.ca/oscarpeterson/index.php if you past the above into the address bar it will bring up information about the DVD that i bought that contained the song it's a very recent on where he plays in vienna (about 2002) http://umusic.ca/oscarpeterson/index.php the above adress leads you to an album called 'oscar peterson's ballads' which the song is on on the vienna video there are two versions played, one in concert and the other one on the story of his life which in my opinion is more intimate and more beautiful

time to talk -- 11/11/2004, 08:51:50 -- #8848

ps Alhaynes the playing different styles in different keys is a subject dealt with in the book called 'metaphors for the musician' the author deals with this by suggesting trying to move you improvisations from one key over to the other, playing slowly at first, something that should expand your ability in the key to which you moved over to.. and that's just a very understated version of what is stated in the book... don't listen to me! get the book if you haven't already TTT

Maree -- 11/11/2004, 09:48:33 -- #8849

With my instructors encouragement (or should I say insistence?)I have incorporated playing IN ALL 12 KEYS to my regular practice regimen. Here's how I've done it... I plan the whole year in advance (12 months/12 keys). Each month I have a key for the blues, a different key for rhythm changes and another key for a standard that I select. (This year it's Autumn Leaves).  I stick with those keys for a full month and set aside time in my regular practice routine  to keep this going. (YES! all three, Blues, Rhythm Changes and a Standard) It's a tough discipline but it's amazing how this routine has benefited my playing. My ability to move in and out of keys, my sight-reading, my improvization  have all improved with this method.

Scot -- 11/11/2004, 18:12:12 -- #8863

I can't say enough about practicing your tunes in all 12 keys.   One of the things I do is something Jiggs Whigham said- there are 12 months, 12 keys, guess what?  Starting in August I practiced all my tunes in the key of A. Then in sept, I went to Ab, oct was G, and this month is Gb.  Just doing that has spread open my playing.

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