while improvising?

"

yes, especially if it's a mixolydian piece (on broadway, killer joe, etc.) or if it's a dorian number (so what, little sunflower, etc.)

the above examples are fairly horizontal, but for vertical style soloing (where the "scale" changes to fit each chord), i'm more likely to think of which notes are in the chord and which passing tones go between the chord tones.

the choice of passing tones is usually dictated by the current underlying tonality.

by 7 on 09/30/2007, 12:01:04 # 37323

i don't think the formal greek names in my head while i'm improvising, no time for that, but i do see and think the geography of what a scale looks like especially when it suddenly changes drastically. for example, if i am playing some i vi ii v tune in eb and all of a sudden a b7 chord appears for four beats, then i might visualize the geography of the white and black notes an instant before my fingers run across them.

by Jazz+ on 09/30/2007, 15:56:20

in other words, i know my scale/chord associations sop well that i react subconsciously in a very quick instant. i see the whole forest (pool of notes, scale geography) without having to name it which would be to distracting and time consuming. of course until you are extremely comfortable with the scale/chord associations it is good to go slowly and analyze to yourself. i too went through all that years ago.

by Jazz+ on 09/30/2007, 15:59:48

jazz+, you're talking about shapes of scales, right?  this is something that i seem to be developing.  that is, i play the scales, even in practice of just the scale, as a shape that repeats each octive.  i am just beginning to get some of these so well that they are beginning to show up in improvising but i've got a long way to go!  amazing stuff though.

by sdm on 09/30/2007, 19:37:38

absolutely.  whenever i memorize a tune.  which is just about ever tune i learn, which is many.  one of the first things i do is learn the chord progression to the tune.  a step that comes soon after that for me is to do a harmonic analysis.  my mind these days sort of processes a chord scale analysis at the same time as i am doing a harmonic analysis.  i can not stop thoughts like  "two five of the four chord" or the lydian scale starting on the 7th of the dominant chord for example.  even i know the tune like i know the blues and do not need to be thinking any theoretical thoughts these things will be there sometimes.

by Mike on 09/30/2007, 19:45:58

for me, once i've really internalized the tune, i've also eyed the target notes that give the chordal structure (chord tones), which means also i've eyed the possible options of what scale to use (which can be more than one). the chord tones are important because beyond them, you can even mix in non-scale tones on the upbeats and really have a large pallette.

then from then on, i really just make the melody flow, with the target notes as a sort of quick baseline. at a fast clip, i start to rely on my ear more than my eyes (for shape) and my fingers start to remember neighboring scale tones are or chromatic movement, and react to my ear.

so to me, shape is for practice, ear is for performance. i didn't use to do it like this so i attribute it to a developing ear. i can listen to patterns and then see if i want to repeat a motif or build from it.

i cannot do this on a new tune. i have to fully internalize it to get to that point. then it feels like meditation.

by jazzwee on 09/30/2007, 22:02:02

indeed, scale shapes and chord arpeggio shapes (chord tones). also, i start to hear lines in terms of rhythmic phrasing: the swing , the combinations of eights (both even and swung), triplets, sixteenths, triplet sixteenths, and the accents. sometimes the notes seem to be more subconscious, more secondary, more incidental than the rhythmic phrasing itself. although i feel that the final target note(s) of each line deserves a little more estimating than the rest of my line.

by Jazz+ on 09/30/2007, 23:03:56

right on jazz+!
+1
nice description

by jazzwee on 10/01/2007, 09:24:52

i only think about the sound i'm trying to get.  sometimes if i'm working on certain voicings (which i do all the time) i'll work out the mathematics of the voicing if it's not completely under my fingers yet.

the only thing i tend to think about on a regular basis is stuff like, "geez, do these notes matter?  am i just playing a bunch of bs?  maybe i better dig into an idea and get more rhythmic."  stuff like that.

by Scot Ranney on 10/01/2007, 12:30:28

reading the post that started this thread and the responses,it seems like the main thing involved is "what should be going on cognitively while you're soloing"....there's some good stuff online about all the intangible factors involved for players who've mastered basics and want to focus on them,but if i am correct in assuming that
"lizarraga" is new to improvising,starting to wonder about the technical/theoretical side of things and,without any background in it,
"tripping" on whether or not they're doing it "right",here's what i'd suggest-

1.decide on some songs to start with

2.figure out the relationship between the chord changes and what you can play over them(this includes using the "modal/chord scale"
approach)

3.try to get a personal approach to things together so that you're not so much focusing on "what something is technically" but rather what you're hearing and how to execute it technically "in the moment"

here are some links to help you figure things out-

by smg on 10/02/2007, 12:33:17

the first one is a guitarists' site that gets into examples of commonly played "beginner" jazz tunes and how to approach them;click on "lessons"-
https://www.frogstoryrecords.com/

by smg on 10/02/2007, 12:39:22

this second one is also a guitar site and has a lot of great info-https://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/improvisation%20guide.htm

by smg on 10/02/2007, 12:42:11

the goal is to develop an approach "prior to your improvisation" so that when you're soloing you're just playing what you hear(the other responses give you some good insights into aspects of this).........

by smg on 10/02/2007, 12:46:47

hi lizzarraga

scales are overrated. in order to create harmonically specific lines (which is what you hear mthe masters doing) you need to emphasize chord tones on strong beats (1 and 3). connect them with arpeggios, scale patterns (this is where the chordscales fit in) and, most importantly, approach patterns. approach patterns link the various chord progressions together creating a harmonically cohesive line. check out the free lesson: improvisation: the concept at
https://www.jazzpianoonline.com.

by jazzpianoonline on 10/04/2007, 15:46:10