Band-in-a-box
i have been using band-in-a-box for ages and am never happy with the results of my practice sessions with it. however, i have always blamed this on my shortcomings as a pianist until it occured to me the other day that band-in-a-box styles are totally unmusical and clumping and quite removed from what anyone would ever play on a bandstand. the basslines in particular are appaling!
i know you can program your own styles but i really can't be bothered to spend the time doing that when i could be practicing.
is there a point to this post? well i suppose i would like to know if anyone else agrees with me and also i would like to recommed that all beginners should not rely on software and playalongs as a substitute for playing with other people.
band-in-a-box undoubtedly has it's uses but it is not a substitute for real bass and drums.
glad i got that off my chest!
barry
i know you can program your own styles but i really can't be bothered to spend the time doing that when i could be practicing.
is there a point to this post? well i suppose i would like to know if anyone else agrees with me and also i would like to recommed that all beginners should not rely on software and playalongs as a substitute for playing with other people.
band-in-a-box undoubtedly has it's uses but it is not a substitute for real bass and drums.
glad i got that off my chest!
barry
There are 18 comments, leave a comment.
there are some really good styles out there, you just have to find them (and a lot of them are free). i once had a "monty alexander/john clayton/jeff hamilton" style that sounded really really good.
haven't been able to locate it.. must have died on an old hd or something which really sucks.
biab doesn't work on my current set up (doesn't like certain usb midi drivers) so i can't dink around with it, however regardless of how hokey it can be, you can still practice changes at the very least.
i used to put changes to my originals in there so i could practice blowing on them before a gig or something.
haven't been able to locate it.. must have died on an old hd or something which really sucks.
biab doesn't work on my current set up (doesn't like certain usb midi drivers) so i can't dink around with it, however regardless of how hokey it can be, you can still practice changes at the very least.
i used to put changes to my originals in there so i could practice blowing on them before a gig or something.
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by Scot Ranney on 03/23/2004, 08:05
i practice with a file that you made that goes through the ii v i sequence. i think it's great for running chords and licks in all keys. i just view this stuff like a metronme. of course it no substitue for the real thing. if i had to choose between playing with a sucky bassist and drummer, i would prefere a playalong or software. but it can actually be a good experiance to play with guys that are weaker than yourself. it pushes you to try hold everything together. i guess what i'm trying to say is that there's pros and cons to playing with software vs. live players. just try to recognize the benifets and shortcoming of each situation. scott once said something
that i try to think about a lot : with the right mindset anything can work.
that i try to think about a lot : with the right mindset anything can work.
also it's good to practice without anykind of background or metronome. try record yourself and listen to how your time, groove and flow is without your software and playalongs.
oh i am aware of the advantages and i still use it - it's just that it's so damn hard to get anything swinging when the bass and drums don't swing at all.
still, a few more plausible styles would help. any idea where i could find some to download? (smg you must know of some being our resident internet guru!)
still, a few more plausible styles would help. any idea where i could find some to download? (smg you must know of some being our resident internet guru!)
yours truly....you know man when i first saw the title of this thread earlier this am i was trying to remember where i'd seen this kind of stuff online,thinking that thats' what it'd be about,so i'm already on the same page as you re-this...as far as pros/cons,here's my view:
having spent a lot of time using ja playalongs,i think there's a lot of good that can come of it,up to a point..and i'm qualifying this by having read interviews with major players like randy brecker who employ this as part of their practice routine...for a player at that level of development/mastery,probably in terms of being negatively impacted by the type of thing you're talking about(which i'll definitely second not in the sense of the players on these ja volumes being anything but the absolute best,grooves/harmonic-melodic possibilities suggested by rhythm sections being as up-to-date as exist,etc,but re-becoming used to reacting to the same track the same way and ending up "on auto-pilot"when you improvise vs.playing with musicians who are part of the overall thing being created,reacting to and with you)probably isn't a factor,these are the type of cats who play with everybody and always get down....so for them using these is just a way of "getting up the next morning after playing a song the night before and seeing what you were into or something.......i used to try to make my own versions of this a long time ago just using a metronome and my then-limited knowledge of the keyboard,playing chords and then trying to solo over these;my time was so f--d up in those days that i would have done a lot better to get into working with these type of practice aids and for this reason i think they're to be recommended for beginning/intermediate players especially...some of these ja playalongs are designed for players at the most advanced levels re-type of material(i.i'm thinking of andy laverne's "reharmonized standards" or some of the ones with challenging originals,and of course they have those ones' designed to help you play as fast as is humanly possible........i'll see what i can find online over the next few days......hey barry(et al) what did you think of what i was talking about in the post about rashied ali?(most recent one)
having spent a lot of time using ja playalongs,i think there's a lot of good that can come of it,up to a point..and i'm qualifying this by having read interviews with major players like randy brecker who employ this as part of their practice routine...for a player at that level of development/mastery,probably in terms of being negatively impacted by the type of thing you're talking about(which i'll definitely second not in the sense of the players on these ja volumes being anything but the absolute best,grooves/harmonic-melodic possibilities suggested by rhythm sections being as up-to-date as exist,etc,but re-becoming used to reacting to the same track the same way and ending up "on auto-pilot"when you improvise vs.playing with musicians who are part of the overall thing being created,reacting to and with you)probably isn't a factor,these are the type of cats who play with everybody and always get down....so for them using these is just a way of "getting up the next morning after playing a song the night before and seeing what you were into or something.......i used to try to make my own versions of this a long time ago just using a metronome and my then-limited knowledge of the keyboard,playing chords and then trying to solo over these;my time was so f--d up in those days that i would have done a lot better to get into working with these type of practice aids and for this reason i think they're to be recommended for beginning/intermediate players especially...some of these ja playalongs are designed for players at the most advanced levels re-type of material(i.i'm thinking of andy laverne's "reharmonized standards" or some of the ones with challenging originals,and of course they have those ones' designed to help you play as fast as is humanly possible........i'll see what i can find online over the next few days......hey barry(et al) what did you think of what i was talking about in the post about rashied ali?(most recent one)
ok you guys, let's make a new play-along program that can read band in the box files but makes them swing better. i've been thinking about this for two months.
really, i'm serious, i'm a hell of a programmer when i try hard, and with all the slick midi/audio libraries out there, you don't even need to know how to interface with equipment any more.
*******
ok, back to the topic at hand. my brother used to play with ja records all the time. for years and years. you know what? even though his chops were monstrous and he could play any tune at any tempo, and play it like you've never heard it, he didn't know how to play with a combo.
i'd hire him, and he couldn't communicate basic things with his playing, like, "i'm setting up a new section." or, "i'm about ready to end my solo." and that sort of thing. he didn't need to- jamey aebersold records wouldn't listen.
it took him years to break out of that habit, literally. like i said before- he played along with those records for a long time, from the age of 12 to probably the age of 24.
so, use these play alongs as a tool to learn how to jam over certain kinds of changes, but then put it down and play with people!
:)
really, i'm serious, i'm a hell of a programmer when i try hard, and with all the slick midi/audio libraries out there, you don't even need to know how to interface with equipment any more.
*******
ok, back to the topic at hand. my brother used to play with ja records all the time. for years and years. you know what? even though his chops were monstrous and he could play any tune at any tempo, and play it like you've never heard it, he didn't know how to play with a combo.
i'd hire him, and he couldn't communicate basic things with his playing, like, "i'm setting up a new section." or, "i'm about ready to end my solo." and that sort of thing. he didn't need to- jamey aebersold records wouldn't listen.
it took him years to break out of that habit, literally. like i said before- he played along with those records for a long time, from the age of 12 to probably the age of 24.
so, use these play alongs as a tool to learn how to jam over certain kinds of changes, but then put it down and play with people!
:)
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
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Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 03/23/2004, 12:56
i think that one of the reasons that biab is so clumpy is that it treats each chord as a unique entity and triggers patterns relative only to how long that chord lasts. a cool trick would be to write a program that would learn how to see harmony in some kind of context and therefore develop more logical and melodic lines to get from one chord to another. so for example, if the progression goes from g7 to cmaj7 then it will trigger a different line than if the progression went g7 to d7. that way the program could use half step approach notes, passing notes and smooth scale-type lines to produce a more idiomatic bass. that would certainly be a start......
------------------
"so, use these play alongs as a tool to learn how to jam over certain kinds of changes, but then put it down and play with people!"
i think that's the right approach scot. i think it may have been dan haerle who, although he plays on some of the aebersolds, has warned that if you don't play with real people you learn how to ignore a rhythm section and not how play with one.....
------------------
"so, use these play alongs as a tool to learn how to jam over certain kinds of changes, but then put it down and play with people!"
i think that's the right approach scot. i think it may have been dan haerle who, although he plays on some of the aebersolds, has warned that if you don't play with real people you learn how to ignore a rhythm section and not how play with one.....
smg,
i just re-read the post and i thought it was interesting - kind of like using 'free' music to clear the musical palette as it were!
i haven't yet tried it so i can't say that it works for me but i have actually found the opposite to be useful. for example, if i am trying to play long lines like oscar peterson and i am gettiing stuck in a rut then i put one of his records on and jam along. that always seems to help me get the rhythmic feel exactly right.
i suspect that often when we 'get stuck in a rut' as you called it, we are often getting too deeply bogged down in the detail of something. listening to music - whether it is what we are trying to play or not often allows us to return to our task with a less cluttered mind and the idea of making music, not technically executing stuff, uppermost in our minds.
i just re-read the post and i thought it was interesting - kind of like using 'free' music to clear the musical palette as it were!
i haven't yet tried it so i can't say that it works for me but i have actually found the opposite to be useful. for example, if i am trying to play long lines like oscar peterson and i am gettiing stuck in a rut then i put one of his records on and jam along. that always seems to help me get the rhythmic feel exactly right.
i suspect that often when we 'get stuck in a rut' as you called it, we are often getting too deeply bogged down in the detail of something. listening to music - whether it is what we are trying to play or not often allows us to return to our task with a less cluttered mind and the idea of making music, not technically executing stuff, uppermost in our minds.
i would just point out that none of the "masters" learned or practiced with play along devices. none of that technology existed. i never used any of that stuff until very recently for some reason un beknowst to me i have been enjoying working out with some of the aebersold play alongs.
but you should be able to prepare for playing with ensembles with out any of these things and if you can not there is something wrong with you r practice methods. the metronome is by far the best band in a box or play a long device ever invented and my guess is that will always be so.
but you should be able to prepare for playing with ensembles with out any of these things and if you can not there is something wrong with you r practice methods. the metronome is by far the best band in a box or play a long device ever invented and my guess is that will always be so.
the metronome never lies... you can never blame it for fault with swing.... it never loses the form. the root of any problem is always found easily and without doubt ... it is with you. that is why the metronome will always be the best play along device.
barry- meet in the piano guild for continuation of the software discussion
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by Scot Ranney on 03/23/2004, 18:04
supposedly this software is designed by jazz players and swings better
https://www.mibac.com/pages/jz.htm
the demo is pretty cool...
https://www.mibac.com/pages/jz.htm
the demo is pretty cool...
"i would just point out that none of the "masters" learned or practiced with play along devices".....in a lot of the interviews i've read w/past masters,especially players coming up when be-bop started,they've described "wearing out the grooves" of the 78's they played solos along with...probably more than likely they also soloed along with the records..what do you think?
hey barry,i think what you're describing doing is another form of what i'm talking about re-balancing out the effect of things by "internalizing" a groove......
i think that the "masters" of old would have used band in a box if it were available to them. same with bach using something like sibelius or finale. i'm sure he would have gotten into that, especially since it's said his musicial handwriting was very difficult to read.
tools are tools- it's how a person chooses to use them that counts. when the save time, they really become valuable to me!
tools are tools- it's how a person chooses to use them that counts. when the save time, they really become valuable to me!
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 03/25/2004, 11:47
i also think that most of the masters developed and a time and, especially, a place where it was more common to have people get together and play.
i was talking to a friend (a guitar player) last night about this and he agreed that if we could find enough good players it would be great to get together. unfortunately, we can't, so aebersolds and band-in-a-box are the best we can do.
i was talking to a friend (a guitar player) last night about this and he agreed that if we could find enough good players it would be great to get together. unfortunately, we can't, so aebersolds and band-in-a-box are the best we can do.
another thing might be to just tape parts of recordings to use for this;this would probably be a good way of picking up the types of feels(and/or harmonic/melodic aspects)players 30+ yrs ago had....for ex. trio sections where the pianist comps for a bass solo (and the drummer's accompanying it) could be used,especially if the soloist uses a straight eighths approach with the bass lines.......or you could take a groove like the one on chameleon(headhunters),i used to practice lines to that....just look for sections that have the type of thing you want.....
btw (in light of seeing neutral,peaceful threads turn into "discussions" leading to people being misinterpreted both here at ljp and in general online)in posting the above i'm not "disagreeing" with "pbp",see above initial reply(3/23).....
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