Minor chord
is our emotional response to a chord (eg minor = "sad") due to it's intrinsic properties, or is this something we learn ?
gordon
gordon
There are 19 comments, leave a comment.
hmmm...nature verses nurture. it's an interesting argument. i would instinctively say our responses are learned through repeated exposure to harmony in a certain context. i.e, the more slow movements, and particularly film and programme music these days, we hear in minor keys strengthens our conditioning. however, there must be a reason why harmony was used to create this effect in the first place. what came first, the chicken or the egg?
the problem is that everyone has heard harmony in context, so it is impossible to remove the conditioning. the only way to tell is to ask someone who has never heard any music before what certain chords make them feel.
unfortunately that isn't going to happen so we're guessing a little bit.
the problem is that everyone has heard harmony in context, so it is impossible to remove the conditioning. the only way to tell is to ask someone who has never heard any music before what certain chords make them feel.
unfortunately that isn't going to happen so we're guessing a little bit.
just thought i'd mention this, when i was an infant, my father used to play a lullaby, it's called "vi har ei tulle med øyne blå" in norwegian, translated to english "our little girl has blue eyes" and the song goes in am. the first bars are: [3/4][am][e7][am][am][a7][dm][bb]
and this song would make me cry after the first three bars. and when my sister gave birth to my niese, this song also made her cry after the first three bars. only 3 weeks old.
doc-z
and this song would make me cry after the first three bars. and when my sister gave birth to my niese, this song also made her cry after the first three bars. only 3 weeks old.
doc-z
i dont know. if i get a chance i'll ask marilyn.
deryck cooke in "the language of music" pointed out that there are certain universal principles in the structure of music that suggest some kind of direct lock with the human mind and emotions - rather like chomsky's view of language as hard-wired into the brain. this would come down on the "nature" side of the equation, though i wasn't completely convinced by cooke's argument. worth a read though. since humans share 60% of their genes with bananas, i'd perhaps draw the line at the idea that minor=sad=genetic.
sid
sid
doc - z
kommer du fra norge? det gjør jeg og! vet du om andre nordmenn som er med i jazzgjengen vår her? hvor kommer du fra egentlig?
kommer du fra norge? det gjør jeg og! vet du om andre nordmenn som er med i jazzgjengen vår her? hvor kommer du fra egentlig?
jag kommer från sverige
to add an example for 7's comment that "[t]here are major tunes that are very sad, just as there are minor tunes that are pretty joyous."
i recall during my first time watching the godfather being shocked to hear the wedding music was in a minor key. i found that to be a pretty interesting example of a minor key song used in a (presumably) happy context.
i recall during my first time watching the godfather being shocked to hear the wedding music was in a minor key. i found that to be a pretty interesting example of a minor key song used in a (presumably) happy context.
i like gordon's question that started this string. it’s loaded.
a sad emotional response to a minor chord (min = sad) is only one example that gordon gave. you've got the diminished chords, #5th, dominant, etc. do they each create a unique emotion? is emotion a feeling? intellectual? physiological?
i would venture to guess that some people feel nothing at all when they hear music. perhaps because they are not listening, or do not know how to listen or what to listen for, or simply don’t care.
a limited education in music has allowed me to better appreciate and experience music. this is certainly “nurture.” there are many elements of music that i am trying to nurture to understand how to speak the language. i’ll have to get a copy of cooke’s book that sid mentioned.
it has always been difficult for me to “feel” the music by just listening. fully experiencing music comes from engaging in it. singing in choir, playing trumpet in college jazz band, sitting alone at my piano, or even dancing. these are the times i have been brought to tears.
what are the “intrinsic” properties that stir emotion? i am certain that the mood or quality of music is independent of the properties of an individual chord. a chord by itself stirs nothing emotionally within me.
for example, a ceg triad sounds like a c major chord by itself, but add a low a in the bass and the same ceg notes sound like a rootless amin7 chord. the nature of the individual triad is completely transformed from major to minor by the context. depending on the tonal center, the now rootless minor triad could imply dorian, phrygian, or aolian (ii7, iii7, or vi7).
what are the “intrinsic” properties that stir emotion? i do not know but i’m trying and i’m listening. this is an intellectual aspect that i believe can help someone like me to know what to listen for. it might hold the key to recognizing an augmented 9th or 13th chord, or various progressions, so that i can understand and speak the language.
a sad emotional response to a minor chord (min = sad) is only one example that gordon gave. you've got the diminished chords, #5th, dominant, etc. do they each create a unique emotion? is emotion a feeling? intellectual? physiological?
i would venture to guess that some people feel nothing at all when they hear music. perhaps because they are not listening, or do not know how to listen or what to listen for, or simply don’t care.
a limited education in music has allowed me to better appreciate and experience music. this is certainly “nurture.” there are many elements of music that i am trying to nurture to understand how to speak the language. i’ll have to get a copy of cooke’s book that sid mentioned.
it has always been difficult for me to “feel” the music by just listening. fully experiencing music comes from engaging in it. singing in choir, playing trumpet in college jazz band, sitting alone at my piano, or even dancing. these are the times i have been brought to tears.
what are the “intrinsic” properties that stir emotion? i am certain that the mood or quality of music is independent of the properties of an individual chord. a chord by itself stirs nothing emotionally within me.
for example, a ceg triad sounds like a c major chord by itself, but add a low a in the bass and the same ceg notes sound like a rootless amin7 chord. the nature of the individual triad is completely transformed from major to minor by the context. depending on the tonal center, the now rootless minor triad could imply dorian, phrygian, or aolian (ii7, iii7, or vi7).
what are the “intrinsic” properties that stir emotion? i do not know but i’m trying and i’m listening. this is an intellectual aspect that i believe can help someone like me to know what to listen for. it might hold the key to recognizing an augmented 9th or 13th chord, or various progressions, so that i can understand and speak the language.
i would guess that of the three basic elements of music, rhythm, harmony and melody, the melody and certainly the rhythm (especially tempo) are more important in creating a happy or sad mood than harmony.
joe
joe
i would explain it similar to ... bright and dark...
major creates a different color than minor.
i think of it in terms of color more often. buti also think of an a major chord as being a different color than a eb major chord. so to me
major chords are brighter than minor chords, but within the major chords
each one of those has a different brightness as well.
so if you think of it in terms of happiness: you could write a happy song in eb major, but if you want to down right silly and giddy right in
a major.
major creates a different color than minor.
i think of it in terms of color more often. buti also think of an a major chord as being a different color than a eb major chord. so to me
major chords are brighter than minor chords, but within the major chords
each one of those has a different brightness as well.
so if you think of it in terms of happiness: you could write a happy song in eb major, but if you want to down right silly and giddy right in
a major.
right = write
ja ole, jeg kommer fra norge, fra tønsberg nærmere bestemt. du da?
7. there may be sad major songs, and there may be joyful minor songs. but i think that the sound of a minor chord all by itself, is sad or wistful, or with at least a hint of melancoly. but a major chord, with no added tones like sevenths etc, is less distinct. but add a major 7th and it too becomes sad, make it diminished and it's exiting or stressfull. the question is really does the music evoke feelings? or do the feelings evoke music?
doc-z
7. there may be sad major songs, and there may be joyful minor songs. but i think that the sound of a minor chord all by itself, is sad or wistful, or with at least a hint of melancoly. but a major chord, with no added tones like sevenths etc, is less distinct. but add a major 7th and it too becomes sad, make it diminished and it's exiting or stressfull. the question is really does the music evoke feelings? or do the feelings evoke music?
doc-z
i don't think the property of the chord will stir any emotion by it's self. it's what the musician is trying to convey that evokes an emotional response. for example, say anyone of us tried to bill evan's "piece peace" just two chord right, a dominant resolving to a major tonic. the listeners experience depends on the ability of the individual musician to express theirself, that's why bill evans makes his chords and lines sound different ways than anyone else... refute me if i'm wrong...
tom
tom
emotions in music are only what the listener chooses to make them be. the performer does not necessarily have anything to do with. the type of chords do not necessarily have anything to do with it. it is mostly an illusion. a good demonstration of this is jack nicholson playing chopin in the movie "five easy pieces". his audience aplauds him for his masterful and emotional playing of chopin. nicholson then tells his audiece that while performing he made a point of making sure he played with absolutely no emotion so the compliment confused him.
i'll go with "feelings evoke music" in the sense that how i feel will usually dictate what i listen to. it's definitely a mood thing. most often my music is introspective and melancholy, which is probably why i like bill evan's stuff so much.
i'm currently working on 'je vivrai sans toi', a michel legrand composition ala bill evans. the be version is actually the only one i've heard, but what he does with this one simple repeating motiff is incredible.
the english title is "i will say goodbye" but i prefer the direct translation..."i will live without you". how sad is that?
did be make me sad, or i was drawn to music because i was sad? who knows. in either case, he clearly painted the picture. it would be interesting to know what mood be was in when he painted it.
i'm currently working on 'je vivrai sans toi', a michel legrand composition ala bill evans. the be version is actually the only one i've heard, but what he does with this one simple repeating motiff is incredible.
the english title is "i will say goodbye" but i prefer the direct translation..."i will live without you". how sad is that?
did be make me sad, or i was drawn to music because i was sad? who knows. in either case, he clearly painted the picture. it would be interesting to know what mood be was in when he painted it.
this may be a little off the topic of intrinsic properties and nature vs nurture...but while i was on this thread elton john's "sad songs" popped into my head.
haven't heard it in a while, but i think it's an up beat cut-time with all major i, iv, and v7 chords. in the bernie t. lyrics he sings about how good sad songs make him feel.
"when all hope is gone
sad songs say so much...
and it feels so good to hurt so bad
and suffer just enough to sing the blues"
haven't heard it in a while, but i think it's an up beat cut-time with all major i, iv, and v7 chords. in the bernie t. lyrics he sings about how good sad songs make him feel.
"when all hope is gone
sad songs say so much...
and it feels so good to hurt so bad
and suffer just enough to sing the blues"
i believe that emotions are in the music (in the melody, the chords, i don't know) and not in the listener.
just try to sing "happy birthday" on the melody of "i will say goodbye" and you'll see what i mean.
bill evans made it sad because it's a sad song. anyone would make it sad.
isn't it the reason why many musicians learn the lyrics while learning a tune ?
another thing. when i'm sad, i want to listen to sad songs. why ? is this sadness so attractive ? is there some beauty in it ?
the poet has said:
"les chants désespérés sont les chants les plus beaux / et j'en sais d'immortels qui sont de purs sanglots"
that is, approximately:
"the desperate songs are also the most beautiful songs/and i know some immortals which are pure sobs"
(it's far better in french)
just try to sing "happy birthday" on the melody of "i will say goodbye" and you'll see what i mean.
bill evans made it sad because it's a sad song. anyone would make it sad.
isn't it the reason why many musicians learn the lyrics while learning a tune ?
another thing. when i'm sad, i want to listen to sad songs. why ? is this sadness so attractive ? is there some beauty in it ?
the poet has said:
"les chants désespérés sont les chants les plus beaux / et j'en sais d'immortels qui sont de purs sanglots"
that is, approximately:
"the desperate songs are also the most beautiful songs/and i know some immortals which are pure sobs"
(it's far better in french)
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