My own philosophy on reading music
people who read music literally amaze me. personally, all i know is all cows eat grass, ect, and thats all i've ever needed. i appreciate those who say they "just dont get it", some of our brains just dont work that way. the truth is, i always related reading music to painting a portrait. why would anyone want to copy a painting, color for color, stroke for stroke? the finished painting would only be a re-print of someone elses work, and cant see any inner satisfaction. i have played tunes over and over a thousand times, and have never played it the same way twice, they just come out the way they come out. to me, i'm playing from my own soul and that satisifies me more than i can explain. to all you note readers....i salute you. your genious makes some of us inferior.
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actually, the reason people copy paintings is not to copy the painting- it's to learn the technique of the artist who originally made the painting.
same with piano. one of the main reasons to learn classical music, exercises, or other "note for note" arrangements is to help build up your technique as well as expand your harmonic awareness, though harmonic awareness can also come through the right kind of listening.
reading music is like any other skill on the piano. what you practice is what you can do.
it's also a skill that professional pianists, jazz or otherwise, need to know if they want to be considered at the top of the game. i guarantee there isn't one studio heavy, piano or otherwise, in the world who isn't also a great reader.
if it works for you, that's great, but people who are getting into jazz or want to get to the next level should know that reading music is a necessary skill if you want to go to the next level as a pro.
same with piano. one of the main reasons to learn classical music, exercises, or other "note for note" arrangements is to help build up your technique as well as expand your harmonic awareness, though harmonic awareness can also come through the right kind of listening.
reading music is like any other skill on the piano. what you practice is what you can do.
it's also a skill that professional pianists, jazz or otherwise, need to know if they want to be considered at the top of the game. i guarantee there isn't one studio heavy, piano or otherwise, in the world who isn't also a great reader.
if it works for you, that's great, but people who are getting into jazz or want to get to the next level should know that reading music is a necessary skill if you want to go to the next level as a pro.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 01/02/2005, 13:23
why learn how to read books? we do not learn how to read hemingway, shakespeare, etc so we can copy them. it is a matter of being literate or illiterate in one own language. you can either do the basic work required to be literate or you can choose to be illiterate and whenever
something comes up that has to be read you can depend on other musicians to read it for you. i've been there hundreds of times having to coach illiterate musicians through parts because they had bizzare objections to learning how to read or more likely were too lazy in their musical lives to do so.
something comes up that has to be read you can depend on other musicians to read it for you. i've been there hundreds of times having to coach illiterate musicians through parts because they had bizzare objections to learning how to read or more likely were too lazy in their musical lives to do so.
inefficient way to go about learning a song. you'll never get more than a clumsy approximation of it that way.
combining sheet music with a deep listening to the song is perhaps a better approach. not only will you see how crummy and full of errors most "transcriptions" are, you'll actually get a feel for what makes the song tick via listening.
but once you get your ears, you won't need the sheet music anymore to help decipher the recording.
at that point you'll have come full circle.
combining sheet music with a deep listening to the song is perhaps a better approach. not only will you see how crummy and full of errors most "transcriptions" are, you'll actually get a feel for what makes the song tick via listening.
but once you get your ears, you won't need the sheet music anymore to help decipher the recording.
at that point you'll have come full circle.
gotta be able to read those unfamiliar charts on jazz gigs. gotta read to play any bach, beethoven or chopin. i agree with mike's post and would say that a musician that can't read is a little bit like a writer unable read.
ok....it seems i raised some fuzz, and didnt mean to do that, i'm sorry. what most of you missed, is that i hold you note readers in very high regard. i wish i were like you, but i'm not. my brain just dosen't "get it"..., and i know there are more people out there like me. i'm saying that i will never discourage a student because he/she dosen't "get it" either. personally i'm not interested in learning someone else'e style, why would i want to? i want to be myself and no one else which is what i believe god intended for all of us. i have read single note melody lines just to get the "feel" of a tune, which is all i can do, or all i ever needed. please dont bash me for what i believe in, or for what i know for fact. i'm jealous of note readers, and, my tip jar has proven note reading is not necessary for those who dont "get it". there are other ways of learning....
very interesting thread indeed. haven't had time to fully read and digest it since i'm in a rush to catch a flight but i wanted to say this:
tools are just tools. you choose the ones you wish to use and in what way you'll use them to build your goal.
tools are just tools. you choose the ones you wish to use and in what way you'll use them to build your goal.
it is not a matter of bashing you. but to say you
"...don't get it" is a cop out. its just a language like english or french or spanish... to be illiterate in it is a choice not a matter of "not getting it" it is wholly a choice to not learn it and remain illiterate. the purpose of becomeing literate is not to develope the ability to copy other people. it is a basic means of communication that
distiguishes humaan beings from other animals.
"...don't get it" is a cop out. its just a language like english or french or spanish... to be illiterate in it is a choice not a matter of "not getting it" it is wholly a choice to not learn it and remain illiterate. the purpose of becomeing literate is not to develope the ability to copy other people. it is a basic means of communication that
distiguishes humaan beings from other animals.
to achieve goals for the good of all mankind.
these people define their identity as a member of a group and do not see themselves as individuals in the western egocentric sense.
your isolationist "me, me, me" attitude will most likely change as you get a broader world view.
these people define their identity as a member of a group and do not see themselves as individuals in the western egocentric sense.
your isolationist "me, me, me" attitude will most likely change as you get a broader world view.
hi sweep:
i have known many people playing music by ear. a lot of them perform tunes in a wonderful way. but they are very limited for a pro job as musicians and they are limited to his/her repertoire.
if you read music at sight your repertoire has not borders.
if you write notes you may express yourself and communicate your thoughts and arrangements to other musicians.
i invite you to learn to play piano at sight in an easy way: please go to search engine (upwards)and write "sight" selecting "files".
to play piano at sight is very easy. enjoy it.
i have known many people playing music by ear. a lot of them perform tunes in a wonderful way. but they are very limited for a pro job as musicians and they are limited to his/her repertoire.
if you read music at sight your repertoire has not borders.
if you write notes you may express yourself and communicate your thoughts and arrangements to other musicians.
i invite you to learn to play piano at sight in an easy way: please go to search engine (upwards)and write "sight" selecting "files".
to play piano at sight is very easy. enjoy it.
mike --
reading is the basic means of communication that distinguishes humans from other animals?
i'd say that the intellect, feeling, and ideas that lie behind the written word are what distinguish us from other animals.
anyway, to everyone else too--
i would rather have familiarity with the former things than the latter even if that is somewhat limiting. i look at feeling and reading as two separate things, reading being only a bridge to feeling. now, you can play good music without reading. but you can't play good music without feeling.
everything that is important in music: the color, the rhythm, the soul, you can hear and understand and play without reading. reading is a great tool, and very useful. but i see a very significant problem, when others get down on someone who seems to have a deep understanding of music as art.
reading is the basic means of communication that distinguishes humans from other animals?
i'd say that the intellect, feeling, and ideas that lie behind the written word are what distinguish us from other animals.
anyway, to everyone else too--
i would rather have familiarity with the former things than the latter even if that is somewhat limiting. i look at feeling and reading as two separate things, reading being only a bridge to feeling. now, you can play good music without reading. but you can't play good music without feeling.
everything that is important in music: the color, the rhythm, the soul, you can hear and understand and play without reading. reading is a great tool, and very useful. but i see a very significant problem, when others get down on someone who seems to have a deep understanding of music as art.
jazz is a communal artform where musicians play together, often with no rehersal or pre-planning. for those situtaions, there is a huge and wonderful body of repertoire (jazz standards) to fall back on, professional jazz musicians have most of those tunes in common. not being able to read would require that you know almost every tune from memory and that is fine if you can do it. however, you will be at a disadvantage every time you encounter new music that you are not familiar with and somebody hands you a chart and expects you to play it. you also will not be able to write down your own compositions for others to play and you are apt to forget them over time.
moondancer i hope you are not referring to me when you say someone who gets down on others who have a deep understanding of music. i have been clear it is not my point to get down on someone for not being able to read. i work in the human services field and work on a daily basis with people who are not capable of reading and writing. on the other hand i have worked with many fine musicians who could not read or write music. they were very different from the people i work with in human services. i have yet to work with a musician who was born with the ability to learn how to read and write musical notation, whereas that is the case with my clients who can not read and write english. the musicians i have worked with no matter how talented they may be and no matter how skilled they may be in other areas choose not to learn to read and write notation allways for what i am sure is reasons based on faulty logic and reasoning based on assumpitions that are clearly incorrect. in addition these musicians always eventually come to asking me to read something to them, or write down some tune or idea they have written for them. i end up doing there work for them then. also there are always times when
communication breakdowns occur because of their lack of skill in this area. for example they talk about how good they are and how learning to read and write would harm them. how they are better than most players with out it. so then you are on the gig where the once in a lifetime chance happens. a celebrity is in the audience, a famous actress, tv personality, maybe tony bennet... whomever.
the club owner comes up to me and says the famous person would like to come up and sing a tune with the band and they gave me charts for you to hand out to the band members. i cant say no to the club owner
of course. so i turn to my celebrity bandmember who is too good to learn how to read and give him his charts. i have 2 minutes before the singer comes on stage. now i must spend the entire 2 minutes trying to help my player who is too good to learn how to read with his chart instead of looking over my chart which any one who knows how to read knows that this is what good readers do when they have 2 minutes warning before haveing to sight read. so the singer starts to sing,
my player who is too great to learn how to read is at least in the right key because he remembers what key i told him, and playing some nice little fills by ear. but he cant play anything solid because alls he can do by ear is wait for things to happen, listen and then respond with fills. you can never be the solid bottom playing by ear in these situations... making you a useless, worthless rhythm section player making me very reluctantly give you your pay at the end of the gig especially because also when the singer sings i find i am making
mistake all over the place becuase i did not get a chance to look over the entire chart before starting becuace i was too busy trying to teach you your part in 2 minutes becuase you are too good to spend the years of hours and hours of work that i spent learning how to read and write. my word to other musicians who dont know how to read and write music. cut the crap with the bullshit exuses, get off your lazy asses and learn how.
communication breakdowns occur because of their lack of skill in this area. for example they talk about how good they are and how learning to read and write would harm them. how they are better than most players with out it. so then you are on the gig where the once in a lifetime chance happens. a celebrity is in the audience, a famous actress, tv personality, maybe tony bennet... whomever.
the club owner comes up to me and says the famous person would like to come up and sing a tune with the band and they gave me charts for you to hand out to the band members. i cant say no to the club owner
of course. so i turn to my celebrity bandmember who is too good to learn how to read and give him his charts. i have 2 minutes before the singer comes on stage. now i must spend the entire 2 minutes trying to help my player who is too good to learn how to read with his chart instead of looking over my chart which any one who knows how to read knows that this is what good readers do when they have 2 minutes warning before haveing to sight read. so the singer starts to sing,
my player who is too great to learn how to read is at least in the right key because he remembers what key i told him, and playing some nice little fills by ear. but he cant play anything solid because alls he can do by ear is wait for things to happen, listen and then respond with fills. you can never be the solid bottom playing by ear in these situations... making you a useless, worthless rhythm section player making me very reluctantly give you your pay at the end of the gig especially because also when the singer sings i find i am making
mistake all over the place becuase i did not get a chance to look over the entire chart before starting becuace i was too busy trying to teach you your part in 2 minutes becuase you are too good to spend the years of hours and hours of work that i spent learning how to read and write. my word to other musicians who dont know how to read and write music. cut the crap with the bullshit exuses, get off your lazy asses and learn how.
get off my lazy ass, huh??
do you think and assume everyone has the same goals as you? first of all. i'm a soloist, and probably always will be. i've been self-employed for almost 20 hard years working every day of the week up to 20 hours a day at times, not to mention raising 2 kids all the while healing from a broken back. it took 15 years for me to learn enough material and also overcome my fear of playing in front of people. for me, i have arrived. i'm thrilled that i can go out occasionally and do $45.00 gig plus tips. to me, i'm living my ultimate dream not yours. you think i dont know that i would be a hinderance to a band because i dont read? or that i would have to depend on someone else?? duh!!!! thats why i solo. i have no intentions or desire to play in a band. i'm comfortable in my own little world and i'm going to stay here where i know myself best. oh...and did i say i'm happy?? every day i'm thankful for getting as far as i have, and will continue to bend over backwards to help anyone if i can.
you live your dream, ill live mine. lazy ass....laughing..thats good
do you think and assume everyone has the same goals as you? first of all. i'm a soloist, and probably always will be. i've been self-employed for almost 20 hard years working every day of the week up to 20 hours a day at times, not to mention raising 2 kids all the while healing from a broken back. it took 15 years for me to learn enough material and also overcome my fear of playing in front of people. for me, i have arrived. i'm thrilled that i can go out occasionally and do $45.00 gig plus tips. to me, i'm living my ultimate dream not yours. you think i dont know that i would be a hinderance to a band because i dont read? or that i would have to depend on someone else?? duh!!!! thats why i solo. i have no intentions or desire to play in a band. i'm comfortable in my own little world and i'm going to stay here where i know myself best. oh...and did i say i'm happy?? every day i'm thankful for getting as far as i have, and will continue to bend over backwards to help anyone if i can.
you live your dream, ill live mine. lazy ass....laughing..thats good
for every person that posts, there are hundreds lurking with similar questions and interests out there.
many come to this forum looking for advice, many come to this forum to give advice. and some just to discuss common interests.
it would seem from the original post in this thread that sweep88's advice to neophytes is "don't bother learning to read music, it will not help you to find your personal voice".
many of us professionals here are obliged to disagree with that point of view.
i don't think anyone here really cares whether sweep88 can read or not. what we care about is that a neophyte lurker might actually believe that reading sheet music is a useless endeavor - which is something that has to be nipped in the bud.
iow, we are not just speaking to sweep88, we are mainly speaking to those who might be tempted to take his/her advice and consequently never learn to read.
many come to this forum looking for advice, many come to this forum to give advice. and some just to discuss common interests.
it would seem from the original post in this thread that sweep88's advice to neophytes is "don't bother learning to read music, it will not help you to find your personal voice".
many of us professionals here are obliged to disagree with that point of view.
i don't think anyone here really cares whether sweep88 can read or not. what we care about is that a neophyte lurker might actually believe that reading sheet music is a useless endeavor - which is something that has to be nipped in the bud.
iow, we are not just speaking to sweep88, we are mainly speaking to those who might be tempted to take his/her advice and consequently never learn to read.
erroll garner did not read music.
pavarotti does not read music (okay, insert singer joke here).
i agree that there is only good in learning to read music -- it's part of learning your "craft".
but i also think there's no need for so much nastiness on the subject.
pavarotti does not read music (okay, insert singer joke here).
i agree that there is only good in learning to read music -- it's part of learning your "craft".
but i also think there's no need for so much nastiness on the subject.
thank you, cynbad..
i logged onto this site in hopes of learning something and to pass on anything i could to anyone who asked. i know what it's like to be frustrated with a brain that "dosen't compute" and i feel i have something to offer those with similar hmmmmmm...disabilities??
if i ever sat face to face with anyone who was throwing around the "nastiness", it would be a different story over a beer or cup of coffee, because music, would be the common denominator, and i guarantee all would become the best of friends.
7p...you are correct, and i can tell you are very educated and intelligent.
i logged onto this site in hopes of learning something and to pass on anything i could to anyone who asked. i know what it's like to be frustrated with a brain that "dosen't compute" and i feel i have something to offer those with similar hmmmmmm...disabilities??
if i ever sat face to face with anyone who was throwing around the "nastiness", it would be a different story over a beer or cup of coffee, because music, would be the common denominator, and i guarantee all would become the best of friends.
7p...you are correct, and i can tell you are very educated and intelligent.
i cant read notation very well, but i do know my chords pretty well and can read chord sheets.
ill be honest, the reason im not a good reader is for one, i have trouble practicing my reading because when i sit at my keyboard/piano i tend to try to play things that are more interesting, as opposed to "bah bah black sheep" or whatever the song of the day would be. so i suppose its a lack of disipline
and another reason i havent taken the initiative to learn to read well is because i havent run across any instances where it was necessary to read. the times when i play in church, i am either given a chord sheet (which usually isnt necessary), or i have to use my ear to figure out the song.
i do intend to learn to read well eventually though.
ill be honest, the reason im not a good reader is for one, i have trouble practicing my reading because when i sit at my keyboard/piano i tend to try to play things that are more interesting, as opposed to "bah bah black sheep" or whatever the song of the day would be. so i suppose its a lack of disipline
and another reason i havent taken the initiative to learn to read well is because i havent run across any instances where it was necessary to read. the times when i play in church, i am either given a chord sheet (which usually isnt necessary), or i have to use my ear to figure out the song.
i do intend to learn to read well eventually though.
my father played guitar, piano and flute by ear, whereas i learned piano entirely by reading sheet-music. both of us wished we could do the other, but while i am making progress towards becoming an improviser, it wasn't an option for my father to become a proficient reader because he suffered from a sort of music "blindness".
to him, the notes seemed to shimmer on the page, and wouldn't stay in one place, meaning it was impossible for him to read them in real-time. this was probably caused by faulty brain eye-scanning circuitry somewhere, and is a well-documented physical problem that is one cause of dyslexia-like symptoms. my own nephew has a similar problem reading printed words - a problem which was fixed by him wearing green-tinted spectacles.
for such people, learning to read written music may be a real impossibility unless a remedy like the tinted glasses is available. who knows what other causes there may be? for those of us who find reading music easy, it may be tempting to label those who can't as lazy, and indeed, some may be, but there may well be other reasons that explain a person's difficulties in reading music which should not be dismissed.
to him, the notes seemed to shimmer on the page, and wouldn't stay in one place, meaning it was impossible for him to read them in real-time. this was probably caused by faulty brain eye-scanning circuitry somewhere, and is a well-documented physical problem that is one cause of dyslexia-like symptoms. my own nephew has a similar problem reading printed words - a problem which was fixed by him wearing green-tinted spectacles.
for such people, learning to read written music may be a real impossibility unless a remedy like the tinted glasses is available. who knows what other causes there may be? for those of us who find reading music easy, it may be tempting to label those who can't as lazy, and indeed, some may be, but there may well be other reasons that explain a person's difficulties in reading music which should not be dismissed.
well mike sucks. he doesnt even have a perm like i do. what would he know. why read? just learn the new kenny g material and you will be all set. check out the new files in albetans room on "how to look like kenny g"
i back the defending culprits who cannot read music.you can see my other posts on this subject. 'walking bass' and some other topic.
i do envy the sight reading pianists very much. but once you find out that you have this ability to play by ear it's virtually impossible to think of reading music.
jazz is an artform and an individual expression of your soul and the vibes heard by oneself, in my view. you can easily play to people having a sing-song and that is how i started it. one does need perfect pitch really and then it is down to the ear/brain/finger coordination. i think?.
when people sing, many are able to do that without a music score to use, we don't criticise them. playing an instrument by ear is similar don't you think? just a different brain function.
i know the 'proper' pianists can get immense pleasure from their great acheivments and i'm the last to criticise them. just watch the great classical pianists, that is fantastic to me.
i would hate to feel too inferior either with the music i make which i hope is not too discordant without knowing any theory.
erroll garner was a genius and there is a book about him under his name. there is some bad language in it which is the fault of the author. don't be put off by it.
alan
i do envy the sight reading pianists very much. but once you find out that you have this ability to play by ear it's virtually impossible to think of reading music.
jazz is an artform and an individual expression of your soul and the vibes heard by oneself, in my view. you can easily play to people having a sing-song and that is how i started it. one does need perfect pitch really and then it is down to the ear/brain/finger coordination. i think?.
when people sing, many are able to do that without a music score to use, we don't criticise them. playing an instrument by ear is similar don't you think? just a different brain function.
i know the 'proper' pianists can get immense pleasure from their great acheivments and i'm the last to criticise them. just watch the great classical pianists, that is fantastic to me.
i would hate to feel too inferior either with the music i make which i hope is not too discordant without knowing any theory.
erroll garner was a genius and there is a book about him under his name. there is some bad language in it which is the fault of the author. don't be put off by it.
alan
i am surprized you guys can read these posts... you can hear people talk so why bother ever reading???
pianists who can't read music.
for you guys who don't read and/or don't want to learn, what is your level of playing? are you making a living at jazz piano? are you hobbyists? i'm curious because every pianist i know who's at the top of their game is also a good reader.
for you guys who don't read and/or don't want to learn, what is your level of playing? are you making a living at jazz piano? are you hobbyists? i'm curious because every pianist i know who's at the top of their game is also a good reader.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 01/13/2005, 11:54
is this website only for professional pianists or can anyone join in.?
i agree that to play in most bands you would need to know all the common keys.and some theory. but of course good ear pianists can, not me perhaps. i only play for my enjoyment of making music on my own piano. as i play traditional jazz (pre bebop anyhow)which has a standard core tune and a rhythm that has a backing for the melody,it is not necessary to read music. after the years go by you get reasonably competant. 60 odd in my case. playing by ear is an unusual thing. if we can do it and it gives us a lot pleasure what's the problem. another factor is when i started to take lessons i found i could play the correct notes without a sheet of music. it is uncanny but the case is that you see the piano keys and know what sound they make. you then do lots of practice and the technique becomes more automatic, you kind of program the brain to sing but using the keyboard instead. its simple really, just like singing only using the piano keys instead of your voice the brain does the rest. i'ts only limited by your fingering and reaction time. that is the hardest part.
i did not come on this forum to argue with other people, just to chat to you guys about jazz piano and hopefully, with my quite long experience might be able to help others.
you are basically right that i do not want to learn but only in the sense that if you want to learn, you cannot know what to do. the kind of jazz i like is there to play, as it is long established. what i need to do is improve my technique and fingering.........a never ending quest for better playing. sounds familiar?
when you others come to this forum what are you wanting to learn? is it something that you havn't heard or something you need to read on a score. i thought the principal of jazz is improvisation so if that is the case, you too will have to practice without the score as it is not spontaneous,is it?
as i go back so long, you have to consider that jazz then was played by pianists that only had quite basic reading ability. they had to develop their style beyond sight reading boundaries.
alan
i agree that to play in most bands you would need to know all the common keys.and some theory. but of course good ear pianists can, not me perhaps. i only play for my enjoyment of making music on my own piano. as i play traditional jazz (pre bebop anyhow)which has a standard core tune and a rhythm that has a backing for the melody,it is not necessary to read music. after the years go by you get reasonably competant. 60 odd in my case. playing by ear is an unusual thing. if we can do it and it gives us a lot pleasure what's the problem. another factor is when i started to take lessons i found i could play the correct notes without a sheet of music. it is uncanny but the case is that you see the piano keys and know what sound they make. you then do lots of practice and the technique becomes more automatic, you kind of program the brain to sing but using the keyboard instead. its simple really, just like singing only using the piano keys instead of your voice the brain does the rest. i'ts only limited by your fingering and reaction time. that is the hardest part.
i did not come on this forum to argue with other people, just to chat to you guys about jazz piano and hopefully, with my quite long experience might be able to help others.
you are basically right that i do not want to learn but only in the sense that if you want to learn, you cannot know what to do. the kind of jazz i like is there to play, as it is long established. what i need to do is improve my technique and fingering.........a never ending quest for better playing. sounds familiar?
when you others come to this forum what are you wanting to learn? is it something that you havn't heard or something you need to read on a score. i thought the principal of jazz is improvisation so if that is the case, you too will have to practice without the score as it is not spontaneous,is it?
as i go back so long, you have to consider that jazz then was played by pianists that only had quite basic reading ability. they had to develop their style beyond sight reading boundaries.
alan
all the common keys? what are those? are there some i waste my time with???
the common keys: most standards in the real book are in
c, f, bb, eb and g (after those would probably come db or ab)
it's probably because are the keys that bb and eb horn players seem to like playing in.
c, f, bb, eb and g (after those would probably come db or ab)
it's probably because are the keys that bb and eb horn players seem to like playing in.
so i don't really need to know the other keys?
poor f#. shafted again.
well i can only play in b - so if you're gonna play on my gigs, you'd better learn b too!!!
haha...7, between your's and jazz+'s that 10 keys. you both repeated g. sorry, the math on that one was driving me crazy. (i.e. add f# and b to the existing "11" and end up with 13?) oh well. i'm weird.
i hate e and b.
i can play in them though, playing "christian alternative" music forces me to use those keys. dang guitarists....
i can play in them though, playing "christian alternative" music forces me to use those keys. dang guitarists....
the forum is for all people interested in jazz of course, i was just explaining in a somewhat annoying sarcastic manner what i feel the merits of knowing how to sight read well are.
if someone is happy with what they do on the piano and don't feel the need to increase their reading skills, i don't see any problem at all with it.
i do think there is a link between those who are great readers and where they are at as pianists, though, at least in the professional world.
i also think that if a person wants to get to the point where they are taking the sweet studio gigs at $250/hour and playing in maynard's band and playing other people's original material (or just reading new stuff down at jam sessions), it's important to have good reading skills.
that's all i meant! sometimes it gets late in the evening, sleep is still far off, but the mind wanders and control over emotional responses is a bit lacking for me.
if someone is happy with what they do on the piano and don't feel the need to increase their reading skills, i don't see any problem at all with it.
i do think there is a link between those who are great readers and where they are at as pianists, though, at least in the professional world.
i also think that if a person wants to get to the point where they are taking the sweet studio gigs at $250/hour and playing in maynard's band and playing other people's original material (or just reading new stuff down at jam sessions), it's important to have good reading skills.
that's all i meant! sometimes it gets late in the evening, sleep is still far off, but the mind wanders and control over emotional responses is a bit lacking for me.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 01/14/2005, 19:03
hey scot....you need to re-read my post 10131. as far as how good could anyone be that dosent read, check out that website i sent you by private message. is it possible a no reader, low life nobody like me could sound like him? i worship your $250. an hour gig your greatness.
paddyallen....send me a private with your phone #. i'd love to talk to you!
paddyallen....send me a private with your phone #. i'd love to talk to you!
to sweep88, sorry but how do you send private messages? this isn't the easiest forum i've been on. thank, alan
back to the thread.
i still think there is something missing in this subject between complete by ear playing and theory plus memory playing. it is to do with your brain and memory factor i think. obviously it is virtually impossible to play composed written music without the ability to read and or memorise the score and expression. in jazz this is much more simple as we do not have to play to the composer's work do we?.
by ear pianists do the whole thing by their memory, of which notes/chords/scales comprise a given melody or sound. timing is then part of the enjoyment and finger skills. few people have acheived pure by ear skill and even fewer professionally. by that i mean complete reliance on experience and memory of the direct thought process :- tune in brain, fingers on keys from memory of sound, of actual note/chord required. tempo easy and variable. not suitable for comping generally. the bass and drums have to be the biggest geniuses of all.
sorry to belabour this point but we 'ear' players are usually soloists. few reach professional status.
incidentally i've never ever seen a jazz pianist use any pedals is that still a fact?
alan
i still think there is something missing in this subject between complete by ear playing and theory plus memory playing. it is to do with your brain and memory factor i think. obviously it is virtually impossible to play composed written music without the ability to read and or memorise the score and expression. in jazz this is much more simple as we do not have to play to the composer's work do we?.
by ear pianists do the whole thing by their memory, of which notes/chords/scales comprise a given melody or sound. timing is then part of the enjoyment and finger skills. few people have acheived pure by ear skill and even fewer professionally. by that i mean complete reliance on experience and memory of the direct thought process :- tune in brain, fingers on keys from memory of sound, of actual note/chord required. tempo easy and variable. not suitable for comping generally. the bass and drums have to be the biggest geniuses of all.
sorry to belabour this point but we 'ear' players are usually soloists. few reach professional status.
incidentally i've never ever seen a jazz pianist use any pedals is that still a fact?
alan
i recently saw a video where thelonious monk used the pedal back in 1965. plus, i've heard that count basie and duke ellington used their left foot to press the pedal so that they could turn their body to the audience - so i guess they used it.
some use the damper pedal, particularly when playing solo/ballads.
marian mcpartland uses her left foot on the pedal so she can tap her right foot.
many don't use the damper pedal much at all. it's mostly for coloring. depends on how creative you want to get with the una corda pedal and the sostenuto pedal.
marian mcpartland uses her left foot on the pedal so she can tap her right foot.
many don't use the damper pedal much at all. it's mostly for coloring. depends on how creative you want to get with the una corda pedal and the sostenuto pedal.
hm, i have never ever seen a jazz pianist who does not use the pedals
not wishing to start an argument but i must say i've never seen jazz pianists use the damper pedal. it is after all the first thing that will effect the sounds adversly when they (damper felts) get worn out,yes?
i find my right foot straying onto the pedal but i always remove it as i get better expression with the touch only. this is of course even more so in a concert where the piano has special acoustic microphones inside for amplification. and surely when you remove the damper from the strings you end up with a resonance that is conflicting and muffeling the sharpness of the notes. or is that the idea?
once more we are talking post bop era mostly but i can believe monk using the pedal. and yes, i see from the lesson features the pedal may be used. but then i havn't seen any concerts in recent years.
i find my right foot straying onto the pedal but i always remove it as i get better expression with the touch only. this is of course even more so in a concert where the piano has special acoustic microphones inside for amplification. and surely when you remove the damper from the strings you end up with a resonance that is conflicting and muffeling the sharpness of the notes. or is that the idea?
once more we are talking post bop era mostly but i can believe monk using the pedal. and yes, i see from the lesson features the pedal may be used. but then i havn't seen any concerts in recent years.
the pedal is a reflex.
most pianists use it without thinking about it consciously.
when it needs to be used we use it, when it doesn't need to be used we don't.
i have no idea where you would get the idea that non-use of the sustain pedal is a characteristic of jazz piano.
most pianists use it without thinking about it consciously.
when it needs to be used we use it, when it doesn't need to be used we don't.
i have no idea where you would get the idea that non-use of the sustain pedal is a characteristic of jazz piano.
jazz pianists use the damper pedal frequently when playing ballads. they seldom use it if at all on medium and up tempo tunes. though they could 'flutter' the pedal on medium tempo swings for a legato line effect.
the damper pedal is used less in jazz. that's all.
there is less of that classical legato playing.
you do hear a lot of pianists who have become dependent on the damper pedal and use it badly and without purpose. it should be used sparingly, intentionally, and for color, in my opinion.
i like jazz+'s remarks. that's what i was getting at.
the other two pedals don't get used much by anyone. some pianos don't even have a sostenuto pedal. and the una corda (soft pedal), while used a lot in classical music, is not used so much in jazz, because most jazz pianists aren't trying to play softer, on one string.
there is less of that classical legato playing.
you do hear a lot of pianists who have become dependent on the damper pedal and use it badly and without purpose. it should be used sparingly, intentionally, and for color, in my opinion.
i like jazz+'s remarks. that's what i was getting at.
the other two pedals don't get used much by anyone. some pianos don't even have a sostenuto pedal. and the una corda (soft pedal), while used a lot in classical music, is not used so much in jazz, because most jazz pianists aren't trying to play softer, on one string.
7's got the words right out of my mouth there.
7, that sounds cool. i'm going to try that!
sorry to go back to the reading issue, but came up to me an interesting metaphor. as you may note, i am not a good english-writer. i assure you that either i don’t speak or listen so well as i would like. i’m from brazil and my native language is portuguese. i could stay with this, and spend my time reading all the literature, philosophy and history available in portuguese. yes, it is more than enough. the portuguese literature itself is one of the most reputable in the world. intellectually speaking, i could stretch the borders of my mind and become one of the best in any area i choose; the limits would only be mine. however, i prefer to spend years, decades, learning another language. for you that never had gone thru this, i assure you, is exhausting. but in the end, i have another tool; something that i can use to reach out more knowledge, without wait somebody translates for me. in other words, i really think that musicians that cannot read can be the best. in my view, there are no limits for them. and if the path is already chosen, i would say that they should stay there. but for beginners, well, use all the tools you have. listen, read, and, if any other stuff is invented, go for it.
nice analogy godinho
thanks godinho,
i am a very keen motor-racing man. you remember ayrton senna? i was a very dedicated supporter of him. i was very upset at his death.
i agree with your views about music. i cannot read but i know what harmonies i like. i am mainly limited by my fingering as i mostly know what notes to play. i can do variations with chords that sound good and add flavour to the original chord.i do think those that have read and connected with sight reading are correct. i am a oddball! i just know i like what i play and it's not all in easy keys either!
kind regards from england.
alan
i am a very keen motor-racing man. you remember ayrton senna? i was a very dedicated supporter of him. i was very upset at his death.
i agree with your views about music. i cannot read but i know what harmonies i like. i am mainly limited by my fingering as i mostly know what notes to play. i can do variations with chords that sound good and add flavour to the original chord.i do think those that have read and connected with sight reading are correct. i am a oddball! i just know i like what i play and it's not all in easy keys either!
kind regards from england.
alan
hi alan:
by reading all your posts i deduce that you have an absolute pitch, and your subconscious outcrops when you play the piano. that’s a privilege that only a few people may have. enjoy it.
please read my file “the subconscious in music” and you will identify yourself in it.
by reading all your posts i deduce that you have an absolute pitch, and your subconscious outcrops when you play the piano. that’s a privilege that only a few people may have. enjoy it.
please read my file “the subconscious in music” and you will identify yourself in it.
thanks, albetan! i have just read your post on tha subject, your dead right about your explanation. erroll garner was said as having perfect pitch, i'm sure that was correct.i tried to save your post to read again but it was encrypted or something this time i opened it, will try and see if my pdf reader will sort it out.
what a super selection of midi music too. this is a very interesting website. i'm just getting used to it.
alan
what a super selection of midi music too. this is a very interesting website. i'm just getting used to it.
alan
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