Slurrs
i find it very interesting in written music how fairly often a slur seems to occur otherwise than where it is commonly expected or thought to be when listening (such as slurred ignoring bar lines). you bring it out; but often, who knows what the listener's brain "catches", or even your own, for that matter (when you look at the music, there are slurrs written in priorly unthought of places perhaps). but especially on organ and other non-touch-sensitive keyboard sounds how is this done as there are no dynamics except you can put in more harmonies to make it louder there or play it "out of the norm" (staccato if it's in legato or vice-versa). it seems to be all in the head often.ponder this, with a ticking clock, our brains usually organizes the ticks into groups of 4, but we can mentally change that to other meters.
let's discuss this subject!
let's discuss this subject!
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has anyone ever started a tape or record within the song & you say, "what in the heck is that?" only to realize your brain was counting the "one" in the wrong place?
no kidding?
what have you to say about the first post, 7?
what have you to say about the first post, 7?
solart, i'm not sure what you're thinking of when you say "slur".
it sounds more like you're talking about an accent, or maybe even a tie.
it sounds more like you're talking about an accent, or maybe even a tie.
actually i'm talking about the phrasing bows that otherwise look like ties. in fact how do you know sometimes if it's a slur or a tie when it could be interpretated either way?
i don't think it's possible to 'slur' something on the piano. i've always thought of a slur as something for other, more suitable, instruments. when i learned some classical piano i was taught to interpret the bows as phrases. then again, they can be ties if the linked notes are of the same pitch... so as markings go they are quite ambiguous.
with jazz, i don't often play lead sheets that i haven't already heard as a recording, so i generally have a preconceived idea of what phrasing to use to get me started. with this being jazz though, i try not to take what's written as more than a basic guide – a point of departure.
actually, none of the lead sheets i have to hand have phrase markings at all. they show tied notes but not phrases.
with jazz, i don't often play lead sheets that i haven't already heard as a recording, so i generally have a preconceived idea of what phrasing to use to get me started. with this being jazz though, i try not to take what's written as more than a basic guide – a point of departure.
actually, none of the lead sheets i have to hand have phrase markings at all. they show tied notes but not phrases.
"slur" is in the dictionary with just this usage! i have an example: chopin's waltz in am, opus 34, no. 2. counting bars backwards from the ending, on bar 37, 38, 40, 41 etc; are these ties or phrase marks(i know this is not jazz, but so what)? personally i play them as ties.
also his waltz in eb, opus 18. counting normally from the beginning, on bars 5, 6, & 7 etc; look at the phrasing ending on the staccatoed note being on beat one. whoever in the world hears it this way? not many i betcha'.
anyway it makes music more interesting to think in "free phrasing".
piano paul---sometimes the phrasing musicians use can't be heard at all as it "goes against the common grain" if you catch my drift. that's what i meant in the post at the very top. we don't truly know how the listener organizes it in his "mental listening phrasing".
also his waltz in eb, opus 18. counting normally from the beginning, on bars 5, 6, & 7 etc; look at the phrasing ending on the staccatoed note being on beat one. whoever in the world hears it this way? not many i betcha'.
anyway it makes music more interesting to think in "free phrasing".
piano paul---sometimes the phrasing musicians use can't be heard at all as it "goes against the common grain" if you catch my drift. that's what i meant in the post at the very top. we don't truly know how the listener organizes it in his "mental listening phrasing".
".
* * * * * * *
slurring is often a question of artistic license. the slur indication is put in there by the composer to indicate how they would prefer the phase to be articulated.
if you disagree with the composer's intent or like your own phrasing better, then by all means go ahead and use it (after doing the composer's way - just to understand their thinking).
* * * * * * *
slurring is often a question of artistic license. the slur indication is put in there by the composer to indicate how they would prefer the phase to be articulated.
if you disagree with the composer's intent or like your own phrasing better, then by all means go ahead and use it (after doing the composer's way - just to understand their thinking).
oops, i should have said bars 37, 36, 34, & 33, in keeping with the backwards counting!
what if the piece is already in legato, chopin mainly played in legato? oh well, i get the point of course.
what if the piece is already in legato, chopin mainly played in legato? oh well, i get the point of course.
what 7 said.
a slur marking for the piano is a legato marking. a two-note phrase.
an entire piece is not written in "legato", nor did chopin play mainly with "legato" articulation.
the articulation is notated carefully in most classical scores.
if there is a "slur" between two notes, you treat it like a two-note phrase, with a slight break after it. not staccato, just a slight break. like a phrase.
a slur marking for the piano is a legato marking. a two-note phrase.
an entire piece is not written in "legato", nor did chopin play mainly with "legato" articulation.
the articulation is notated carefully in most classical scores.
if there is a "slur" between two notes, you treat it like a two-note phrase, with a slight break after it. not staccato, just a slight break. like a phrase.
cynbad, check out those waltzes. what if it has three or more notes? my statement above should have read, "what if the piece is already in legato? chopin mainly played in legato." well, he certainly had legato playing mastered, at any rate. like everyone should! don't most people generally play in legato unless otherwise indicated?
you know, connect those notes seamlessly...
anyway it's good to hear from you!
well, it's a phrase marking. you could also have a phrase marking with staccato marks underneath it for each note.
then you'd just have to use dynamics, rubato, etc. to shape the phrase of staccato notes.
check out those mazurkas and polonaises. not just legato there.
it's not hard to play legato. the skill comes in shaping phrases and bringing out lines within polyphony.
you want to hear a master of chopin, listen to martha argerich.
then you'd just have to use dynamics, rubato, etc. to shape the phrase of staccato notes.
check out those mazurkas and polonaises. not just legato there.
it's not hard to play legato. the skill comes in shaping phrases and bringing out lines within polyphony.
you want to hear a master of chopin, listen to martha argerich.
7---you are a good comic or your subliminal mind is showing itself! also it is a great idea to see how it goes with other instruments; 'gives a broader picture.
cynbad--- you're right about those mazurkas & polonaises. i like alexander brailowsky for chopin. too bad he never lived long enough to record the entire chopin literature for columbia records. i've nver knowingly heard of martha argerich, i'll look around. some serious listeners of chopin collect various artists playing chopin, but that could get to the pocketbook. anyway, he's my favorite. why did he have to die so young?
cynbad--- you're right about those mazurkas & polonaises. i like alexander brailowsky for chopin. too bad he never lived long enough to record the entire chopin literature for columbia records. i've nver knowingly heard of martha argerich, i'll look around. some serious listeners of chopin collect various artists playing chopin, but that could get to the pocketbook. anyway, he's my favorite. why did he have to die so young?
7---i can't remember, do you also play flute? if so have you ever played a hall crystal flute, you know, those made of pyrex & painted with designs? i've been thinking of buying one as i've always loved the sound of a flute. anyway if you have played one what do you think of them, they certainly are cheap enough & get great reviews. i'd like the "d" one.
solart, argerich is a phenomenon. she won the chopin competition when she was about 16, i believe.
she's known for viruosity, speed, and intense expression and nuance.
the only real criticism i've ever had of her is that she plays some things too damn fast.
she's most well known for her performances of the rach 3, and the prokofiev 3. and a whole lot of chopin.
i happen to love her liszt sonata more than anyone else's. it's a jaw-dropper. she doesn't even cheat on anything.
she's known for viruosity, speed, and intense expression and nuance.
the only real criticism i've ever had of her is that she plays some things too damn fast.
she's most well known for her performances of the rach 3, and the prokofiev 3. and a whole lot of chopin.
i happen to love her liszt sonata more than anyone else's. it's a jaw-dropper. she doesn't even cheat on anything.
).
it is of course possible to get chromatics by half-hole techniques but it's a hassle.
after a very short time playing the sweat on your fingers makes them slippery and hard to keep a hold of. i (almost) solved this problem by putting a little swatch of medical tape on all of the contact areas (which however destroys the beauty of the flute). if the glass were "etched" with acid (or something) to give these points of contact more friction that would be very helpful. i even mentioned this to the creator of the flutes when i went to his booth at the naam show a few years back, but as you can see my opinions hold no weight.
i pull them out once a year or so and fool around with them, but while the pure crystalline sound of a glass flute is very pretty, the high notes can become rather shrill.
all in all i prefer the sound of wood to glass. i have several wooden flutes of the "penny whistle" variety and i find that wood gives a much mellower darker richer sound than glass or metal.
make sure to get a cleaning rod, if you don't clean the flute after every use some evil things can take up residence inside (yuk).
it is of course possible to get chromatics by half-hole techniques but it's a hassle.
after a very short time playing the sweat on your fingers makes them slippery and hard to keep a hold of. i (almost) solved this problem by putting a little swatch of medical tape on all of the contact areas (which however destroys the beauty of the flute). if the glass were "etched" with acid (or something) to give these points of contact more friction that would be very helpful. i even mentioned this to the creator of the flutes when i went to his booth at the naam show a few years back, but as you can see my opinions hold no weight.
i pull them out once a year or so and fool around with them, but while the pure crystalline sound of a glass flute is very pretty, the high notes can become rather shrill.
all in all i prefer the sound of wood to glass. i have several wooden flutes of the "penny whistle" variety and i find that wood gives a much mellower darker richer sound than glass or metal.
make sure to get a cleaning rod, if you don't clean the flute after every use some evil things can take up residence inside (yuk).
cynbad--- i'll have to really check her out then. and what i said about the various artists playing chopin, i mean playing the same pieces. various artists play waltzes, mazurkas, etc. so you can really compare the different interpretations. interesting i'm sure.
7---thanks for your input, i'll have to reconsider if i want one after all or not. and the evil things can be seen so well!
7---thanks for your input, i'll have to reconsider if i want one after all or not. and the evil things can be seen so well!
some instruments with nice sounds but primitive mechanics can be made usable by sampling and playing back with a windsynth (or a keyboard, or any other controller). of course, evil things can grow inside your windsynth too!
this comment is nothing to do with slurrs of course, but this thread seems happy to wander on and off topic!
sid
this comment is nothing to do with slurrs of course, but this thread seems happy to wander on and off topic!
sid
this site sure beats those imbeciles in those stupid chat rooms. i used to try & discuss music theory in some of the supposed music rooms but you get people that react with "so, you think you know it all?", "i just play what i feel." to them music is a mystery. what idiotic rooms!
i find it very interesting in written music how fairly often a slur seems to occur otherwise than where it is commonly expected or thought to be when listening (such as slurred ignoring bar lines). you bring it out; but often, who knows what the listener's brain "catches", or even your own, for that matter (when you look at the music, there are slurrs written in priorly unthought of places perhaps). but especially on organ and other non-touch-sensitive keyboard sounds how is this done as there are no dynamics except you can put in more harmonies to make it louder there or play it "out of the norm" (staccato if it's in legato or vice-versa). it seems to be all in the head often.ponder this, with a ticking clock, our brains usually organizes the ticks into groups of 4, but we can mentally change that to other meters.
let's discuss this subject!
let's discuss this subject!
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