hi all... i was wondering if some veterans had any advice on developing a good swing feel.  i started playing music in elementary school, but i really developed my way of playing later on in a rock group.  i dont know if its that or my whiteness, but i always seem to be on top of the beat.  ive practiced with a metronome a lot, and plan to continue doing this, but i was hoping to get some drills that would expediate the process of learning to swing...thanks in advance
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there are not a lot of drills that can help your swing feel, but one you could try is to play your scales and accent the up-beats.  play the scales in eight notes- don't try to "swing" them- just accent the up-beats, or every other note.

swing is more of an accent thing than a rhythm thing. you definitely don't want to get into the problem of thinking that swing notes are "dotted eights with a sixteenth" or "triplets with the first two tied."

one of the best ways is to get some heavy swinging music like monty alexander at the montreaux jazz festival in 1977 and play along with it.  

you can also record your own playing. you know what swing should sound like, we all do.  so record what you play and then listen to it with a critical ear. what is different about your playing, the feel, the notes, whatever, that needs to be improved so that it sounds like the kind of music you love to listen to?  

all these things can help, but the most helpful thing of all is to listen to the music you want to play all the time. then the language of swing will be part of you.  until it's part of you, then you're just interpreting what you think it should be.  so listen a lot to pro recordings and listen a lot to recordings of you playing, and i guarantee you'll start developing that feel you're looking for.
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Use the contact link at the top of the page.
on the other hand don't get in the habit of accenting the upbeats all the time or it will sound and feel bumpy... it's a very funky-bluesy way of playing. my advice is to get comfortable with the triplet feeling swing eights first (with no accents) and then  work on mastering the upbeat accent exercise.
just experiment with player "looser", play your ruminations, so what if maybe at first it sounds not right; 'just keep on truckin', & i betcha' sooner or later you'll have it! believe it or not i first learned to swing with a country/southern rock band where i really began to cut loose by attempting (and it fairly soon succeeded) to put real loose bluesy fills in the background. what fun it was too! cool man, cool...
play along with the album "night train" by the oscar peterson trio, "cannonball adderly and john coltrane in chicago", "kind of blue" by miles davis(the track 'freddie the freeloader, in particular'), "four and more" and "my funny valentine" with the miles davis quintet, "coltrane's sound", and learn "the charleston rag" by eubie blake.

the real essence of the swing feel is in the upbeat.....so, when i play quarter notes, i actually think about the upbeat that preceeds them.  that left hand thing in the first strain of "the charleston rag" is a good example of this.  the downbeats are strong, but what really drives the rhythm is the note that is played on the upbeat.  also.......don't forget to relax.......nothing can bog down a good swing feel like tension(which creates unevenness in the lines).
thanks for the advice guys, ill try those exercises.  i can get really loose when playing with my band, but weve been playing together for 2 years...the  problem is more in the academic setting(im in college) when theres lots of chord changes and subtlety is more of a concern.  i listened to jazz for 4 hours last night and tapped the feel with my left hand, and that definetly made the music a lot clearer in my head, not to mention interesting dreams...thanks again
all that jazz  
new scientist vol 168 issue 2270 - 23 december 2000, page 48  

it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. but what is swing?  

when the musical  west side story opened in london in 1958 the producers had a real problem. they didn't know who should occupy the drum stool. leonard bernstein's score was hard. and it was jazzy. at the time most of britain's jazz drummers wouldn't do because they simply couldn't read music well enough. the classical percussionists, though flawless readers, also had an irredeemable failing. these "straight" musicians, as the jazz world calls them, just couldn't swing.
swing is at the heart  of jazz. it's what makes the difference between music you can't resist tapping your feet to and a tune that leaves you unmoved. only now are scientists beginning to unravel the subtle secrets of swing. even today, many drum instruction manuals lay down a rigid formula for swing, based on alternately lengthening and shortening certain notes according to a strict ratio, says anders friberg, a physicist at the royal institute of technology in stockholm, who's also a pianist. but these rules are misleading. "if you took them literally you would never learn to swing," says friberg.
the fundamental rhythmic unit in jazz is the quarter note. when you tap your feet to the music you are marking out quarter notes-or crotchets as they are called in britain. superimposed on this basic beat are melodies. often melody lines consist of eighth notes, which last half as long on average as a quarter note.
but no one plays music exactly as it is written, just as no two people would read a passage from a book the same way. if you want to hear music played exactly as written there are thousands of midi files on the net which are direct translations of sheet music. and very tedious they are too-convincing proof that computers don't have a soul. real musicians shorten one note, lengthen another, delay a third and accent notes. it is all part of creating an individual style.
in jazz this interpretation is taken to extremes-and the way jazz musicians play their eighth notes is one of the keys to swing. faced with a row of eighth notes on a sheet of music a straight musician plays a series of more or less equal notes. a jazz musician plays the eighth notes alternately long and short. the long note coincides with the basic beat, the note clipped short is off the beat. there is a similar but less pronounced tendency to play notes long and short in folk and baroque music as well as in popular music.
many drum instruction books say that the long eighth note should be twice as long as the short one. but you simply can't lay down a rigid formula for swing, says friberg. it all depends on the tempo of the piece you are playing. although professional musicians are largely aware of these complexities-or can at least feel how to swing-inexperienced musicians may not be so lucky. friberg points out that many contemporary rock drummers may pick up bad habits because they practise keeping time by playing with drum machines, which may rely on the simplistic swing formula.
friberg measured the ratio between the long and short notes, the swing ratio, of four drummers on a series of commercial recordings. they included some of the best drummers in jazz, such as tony williams who played with miles davis on the my funny valentine album, jack dejohnette, part of keith jarrett's trio and jeff watts, who played with wynton marsalis.
friberg used a frequency analysis program to pick out the distinctive audio signal of the drummer's ride cymbal from a series of 10-second samples from the records. in modern jazz, drummers normally play a pattern of quarter notes and eighth notes on this cymbal with their right hand. he found the drummers varied their swing ratio according to the tempo of the piece. at slow tempos the long eighth notes were played extremely long and the short notes clipped so short that they were virtually sixteenth notes. but at faster tempos the eighth notes were practically even. the received wisdom of a 2 to 1 swing ratio was only true at a medium-fast tempo of about 200 quarter-note beats per minute. "the swing ratio has a more or less linear relationship with tempo," says friberg.
although this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo held true for every drummer, there were some notable stylistic differences. "tony williams, for example, has the longest swing ratios," says friberg. this is partly his style. but jazz is also a cooperative style of music-you have to fit in with those around you. "it's partly a matter of who he is playing with," says friberg.
friberg backed up his findings by creating a computer-generated version of a jazz trio playing the yardbird suite, a theme written by charlie parker. he then played the piece back to a panel of 34 people at different tempos and asked them to adjust the swing ratio. he found that the listeners also preferred larger swing ratios at slow tempos while at fast tempos the ratio was closer to 1.
the results are impressively consistent-and they also give a clue to the split-second accuracy that jazz musicians have to achieve if they are going to keep the listeners tapping their feet. at a relatively slow tempo of 120 beats per minute most listeners prefer a swing ratio somewhere between 2.3 and 2.6.
part of the reason for this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo, says friberg, may be that there is a limit to how fast musicians  can play a note-and how easily listeners can distinguish individual notes. at medium tempos and above, the duration of the short eighth notes remained more or less constant at slightly under one-tenth of a second. the shortest melody notes in jazz have a similar minimum duration. friberg thinks this should set a maximum practical tempo for jazz of around 320 beats per minute, and very few jazz recordings approach this speed.
he points out that there's a limit to the speed listeners can process notes. when the tenor saxophonist john coltrane made his first solo recordings in the late 1950s jazz critics began referring to his fast succession of notes as "sheets of sound". "this is what you hear if you don't hear the individual notes," says friberg.
just as jazz musicians have a standard repertoire of tunes, so there is a similar repertoire of jokes. one has a member of the audience asking: "how late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "about half a beat behind the drummer." that joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it.
in his latest research, friberg went back to the same recordings and looked at the timing of soloists, such as miles davis,  to see if they used the same swing ratios as the drummers. he found that the soloists' swing ratios also dropped as the tempo increased. more surprising was the fact that the drummer always played larger swing ratios than the soloist they were playing with. even at slow tempos soloists rarely had swing ratios greater than 2 to 1.
the difference helps to explain why a soloist can seem to be so laid back on a particularly toe-tapping number. when playing a note that nominally coincides  with the basic quarter-note beat, the soloist hangs back slightly. "the delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo," says friberg.
this tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. in the  introduction to the 1867 book slave songs of the united states charles ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "one noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said.
members of the audience synchronise with the band by tapping their feet to the basic beat. but musicians have a more subtle strategy. "if you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful," says friberg. "the funny thing," he adds, "is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. they synchronise on the short eighth note."
he says that this off-the-beat synchronisation of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. effectively the musicians synchronise their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. when the off-the-beat notes are synchronised, says friberg, "you often don't realise the soloist is lagging".
    

  how the written and played music differ  

so how did the producers of west side story resolve their drumming dilemma? even after 42 years musicians still tell the story. at the time britain's best jazz drummer was phil seaman, who was a good reader. but he had a problem. or to be precise, two problems. one was alcohol and the other heroin. but after some dithering, the producers gave him the job. all went well until one matinee, when the regular conductor took the day off.
seaman had a habit, half-affected, half-genuine, of appearing to doze when he wasn't playing-and during one pause in the music, his head began to nod. fearing that he had dropped off and wary of his reputation, the conductor gestured frantically to the bass player to wake the dozing drummer. the bass player reached across and prodded seaman with  his bow. startled, seaman stood up and fell backwards over his drum stool, straight into the chinese gong-which reverberated around the theatre and stopped the show.
seaman stood up, cleared his throat, and announced: "ladies and gentlemen, dinner is served." the management promptly sacked him.
try playing while whispering the words "cheese doctor"
cheese doctor?
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.

Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
cheese doctor, cheese doctor, cheese doctor,
i don't get it either.
whisper cheese doctor and keep repeating it. dont you hear the swing when you whisper that?
no, i don't.
you can whisper that with just about any rhythm you want.
is it like a fast "boom - chick - a"?  is that what you're hearing?
have you talked to a therapist about this?
lol
yup, a pshycotherapist. get it, "pshyco" therapist. hahahahaha
dalty mentions eubie blake's "charleston rag". i first learned it when i was about 19 or 20.  

eubie wrote it in 1899 when he was 16 years old, but what an incredible number!

it just so happens that i'd recently pulled that tune out of the mothballs to bring it back up to performance level. so it's been on my mind lately ...

eubie had massive hands that could span a twelfth. the left hand in this rag is chock full of tenths and the right hand has tons of instances where he uses those wide 7th chords (b7-3-5-1).

it's also full of some truly amazing tricks. as such i truly believe that this song is the legitimate precursor to what james p. johnson many years later called "stride" (lots of flashy tricks, lh 10ths, et al).

i was toying with the idea of putting up a midi of it here, but i haven't bothered to reload all the software i need to make that happen since my computer crashed the last time.

hopefully i'll get around to it one of these days.

final word: "charleston rag" (which has nothing to do with "the charleston") is not a piece for the faint of heart. it's played at breakneck speed with no "relaxing spots" and requires some pretty heavy duty technique. a real "fingerbuster" ...
hi all... i was wondering if some veterans had any advice on developing a good swing feel.  i started playing music in elementary school, but i really developed my way of playing later on in a rock group.  i dont know if its that or my whiteness, but i always seem to be on top of the beat.  ive practiced with a metronome a lot, and plan to continue doing this, but i was hoping to get some drills that would expediate the process of learning to swing...thanks in advance
there are not a lot of drills that can help your swing feel, but one you could try is to play your scales and accent the up-beats.  play the scales in eight notes- don't try to "swing" them- just accent the up-beats, or every other note.

swing is more of an accent thing than a rhythm thing. you definitely don't want to get into the problem of thinking that swing notes are "dotted eights with a sixteenth" or "triplets with the first two tied."

one of  the best ways is to get some heavy swinging music like monty alexander at the montreaux jazz festival in 1977 and play along with it.  

you can also record your own playing. you know what swing should sound like, we all do.  so record what you play and then listen to it with a critical ear. what is different about your playing, the feel, the notes, whatever, that needs to be improved so that it sounds like the kind of music you love to listen to?  

all these things can help, but the most helpful thing of all is to listen to the music you want to play all the time. then the language of swing will be part of you.  until it's part of you, then you're just interpreting what you think it should be.  so listen a lot to pro recordings and listen a lot to recordings of you playing, and i guarantee you'll start developing that feel you're looking for.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.

Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
all that jazz  
new scientist vol 168 issue 2270 - 23 december 2000, page 48  

it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. but what is swing?  

when the musical  west side story opened in london in 1958 the producers had a real problem. they didn't know who should occupy the drum stool. leonard bernstein's score was hard. and it was jazzy. at the time most of britain's jazz drummers wouldn't do because they simply couldn't read music well enough. the classical percussionists, though flawless readers, also had an irredeemable failing. these "straight" musicians, as the jazz world calls them, just couldn't swing.
swing is at the heart  of jazz. it's what makes the difference between music you can't resist tapping your feet to and a tune that leaves you unmoved. only now are scientists beginning to unravel the subtle secrets of swing. even today, many drum instruction manuals lay down a rigid formula for swing, based on alternately lengthening and  shortening certain notes according to a strict ratio, says anders friberg, a physicist at the royal institute of technology in stockholm, who's also a pianist. but these rules are misleading. "if you took them literally you would never learn to swing," says friberg.
the fundamental rhythmic unit in jazz is the quarter note. when you tap your feet to the music you are marking out quarter notes-or crotchets as they are called in britain. superimposed on this basic beat are melodies. often melody lines consist of eighth notes, which last half as long on average as a quarter note.
but no one plays music exactly as it is written, just as no two people would read a passage from a book the same way. if you want to hear music played exactly as written there are thousands of midi files on the net which are direct translations of sheet music. and very tedious they are too-convincing proof that computers don't have a soul. real musicians shorten one note, lengthen  another, delay a third and accent notes. it is all part of creating an individual style.
in jazz this interpretation is taken to extremes-and the way jazz musicians play their eighth notes is one of the keys to swing. faced with a row of eighth notes on a sheet of music a straight musician plays a series of more or less equal notes. a jazz musician plays the eighth notes alternately long and short. the long note coincides with the basic beat, the note clipped short is off the beat. there is a similar but less pronounced tendency to play notes long and short in folk and baroque music as well as in popular music.
many drum instruction books say that the long eighth note should be twice as long as the short one. but you simply can't lay down a rigid formula for swing, says friberg. it all depends on the tempo of the piece you are playing. although professional musicians are largely aware of these complexities-or can at least feel how to swing-inexperienced musicians  may not be so lucky. friberg points out that many contemporary rock drummers may pick up bad habits because they practise keeping time by playing with drum machines, which may rely on the simplistic swing formula.
friberg measured the ratio between the long and short notes, the swing ratio, of four drummers on a series of commercial recordings. they included some of the best drummers in jazz, such as tony williams who played with miles davis on the my funny valentine album, jack dejohnette, part of keith jarrett's trio and jeff watts, who played with wynton marsalis.
friberg used a frequency analysis program to pick out the distinctive audio signal of the drummer's ride cymbal from a series of 10-second samples from the records. in modern jazz, drummers normally play a pattern of quarter notes and eighth notes on this cymbal with their right hand. he found the drummers varied their swing ratio according to the tempo of the piece. at slow tempos the long eighth notes were played extremely long and the short notes clipped so short that they were virtually sixteenth notes. but at faster tempos the eighth notes were practically even. the received wisdom of a 2 to 1 swing ratio was only true at a medium-fast  tempo of about 200 quarter-note beats per minute. "the swing ratio has a more or less linear relationship with tempo," says friberg.
although this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo held true for every drummer, there were  some notable stylistic differences. "tony williams, for example, has the longest swing ratios," says friberg. this is partly his style. but jazz is also a cooperative style of music-you have to fit in with those around you. "it's  partly a matter of who he is playing with," says friberg.
friberg backed up his findings by creating a computer-generated version of a jazz trio playing the yardbird suite, a theme written by charlie parker. he then played the piece back to a panel of 34 people at different tempos and asked them to adjust the swing ratio. he found that the listeners also preferred larger swing ratios at slow tempos while at fast tempos the ratio was closer to 1.
the results are impressively consistent-and they also give a clue to the split-second accuracy that jazz musicians have to achieve if they are going to keep the listeners tapping their feet. at a relatively slow tempo of 120 beats per minute most listeners prefer a swing ratio  somewhere between 2.3 and 2.6.
part of the reason for this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo, says friberg, may be that there is a limit to how fast musicians  can play a note-and how easily listeners can distinguish individual notes. at medium tempos and above, the duration of the short eighth notes remained more or less constant at slightly under one-tenth of a second. the shortest melody notes in jazz have a similar minimum duration. friberg thinks this should set a maximum practical tempo for jazz of around 320 beats per minute, and very few jazz recordings approach this speed.
he points out that there's a limit to the speed listeners can process notes. when the tenor saxophonist john coltrane made his first solo recordings in the late 1950s jazz critics began referring to his fast succession of notes as "sheets of sound". "this is what you hear if you don't hear the individual notes," says friberg.
just as jazz musicians have a standard repertoire of tunes, so there is a similar repertoire of jokes. one has a member of the audience asking: "how late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "about half a beat behind the drummer." that joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it.
in his latest research, friberg went back to the same recordings and looked at the timing of soloists, such as miles davis,  to see if they used the same swing ratios as the drummers. he found that the soloists' swing ratios also dropped as the tempo increased. more surprising was the fact that the drummer always played larger swing ratios than the soloist they were playing with. even at slow tempos soloists rarely had swing ratios greater than 2 to 1.
the difference helps to explain why a soloist can seem to be so laid back on a particularly toe-tapping number. when playing a note that nominally coincides  with the basic quarter-note beat, the soloist hangs back slightly. "the delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo," says friberg.
this tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. in the  introduction to the 1867 book slave songs of the united states charles ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "one noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said.
members of the audience synchronise with the band by tapping their feet to the basic beat. but musicians have a more subtle strategy. "if you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful," says friberg. "the funny thing," he adds, "is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. they synchronise on the short eighth note."
he says that this off-the-beat synchronisation of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. effectively the musicians synchronise their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. when the off-the-beat notes are synchronised, says friberg, "you often don't realise the soloist is lagging".
    

  how the written and played music differ  

so how did the producers of west side story resolve their drumming dilemma? even after 42 years musicians still tell the story. at the time britain's best jazz drummer was phil seaman, who was a good reader. but he had a problem. or to be precise, two problems. one was alcohol and the other heroin. but after some dithering, the producers gave him the job. all went well until one matinee, when the regular conductor took the day off.
seaman had a habit, half-affected, half-genuine, of appearing to doze when he wasn't playing-and during one pause in the music, his head began to nod. fearing that he had  dropped off and wary of his reputation, the conductor gestured frantically to the bass player to wake the dozing drummer. the bass player reached across and prodded seaman with  his bow. startled, seaman stood up and fell backwards over his drum stool, straight into the chinese gong-which reverberated around the theatre and stopped the show.
seaman stood up, cleared his throat, and announced: "ladies and gentlemen, dinner is served." the management promptly sacked him.
hehe...........fingerbuster, indeed.  i need to rehash it, myself..........it's been a while.  it is at times played fast, but not always.........i have a recording of eubie playing it fairly slow.  terry waldo usually plays it pretty fast.  regardless, it's a hard, piece, but a masterpiece, at that.  to me, that piece sets the scene for what is to come, years before it got there(just like 7 was talking about it being a precursor to stride).  it would be interesting to hear how eubie played it when he actually wrote it.............i'll bet it evolved, in some ways, over time.  

for those of you who haven't checked out eubie blake's music, please do!  you may be familiar with his hits "memories of you" or "i'm just wild about harry".  terry waldo's book called "sincerely, eubie blake" has some fabulous transcriptions of some of eubie's best solo piano pieces.  baltimore todolo, poor jimmy green, eubie's classical rag, poor katie redd.....they are all so good!  

7, if you haven't heard scott kirby's recordings of eubie blake stuff, you should check it out.  he does "the charleston rag" on his "grace and beauty - ragtime classics" album and "the baltimore todolo" on his album "some assembly required".  some assembly required is a fabulous album with new orleans blues, boogie woogie, and stride.  in my opinion, there is no better ragtime player alive than scott; especially when it comes to the classic stuff of joplin, james scott, and joseph lamb.
haven't heard scott kirby's recordings.  i think max morath was one of the only people whose recordings were readily available to me when i was learning the stuff.  actually, i just found a recording i made when i was 14 or so of "the charleston rag" -- if i can find a cassette player with a good output around here, maybe if i make an mp3 of it you could give some critiques, dalton.  i'm trying to relearn a good bit of this repertoire, and let me tell you, it's taking a good bit of effort!  

"poor katie redd" is a nice one too, i agree.
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