"I Am A Woman"
jhmurray, dalty and others
"i am a woman"......sounds like the title to a tune that has my name on it.
i visit this site because it helps me feel connected to jazz piano learning. there's lots to learn here....and very interesting threads to read. i am a woman(and have been for quite awhile). i have a particular affinity for jazz. i know some of the basic classical repertoire, and would like to keep learning.
why don't more women play jazz? i can only surmise that it might have something to do with the societal view of what was, and is appropiate for women to play. in terms of gender, it has been male-centered because men have been given cultural permission to explore and move about in the world more so than women. jazz/blues have been music that has grown out of movement. also, there has been an unspoken belief system that relegated women to the ranks of being vocalists, but not always viewed as "musicians/instrumentals". this has been the sometimes subtle and not so subtle forms of gender discrimination.
so i think something really powerful is taking place on this site(healthy inquisitiveness" where are the women?") and in our society in general. yes, we females, being human have the capacity to be music-makers just like our male counterparts. music-creation is a human endeavor. jazz music-making is a human creative pursuit.
more than likely, each one of us coming to this site have some common personality traits which draws us to this music; on the other side each one of us has some unique abilities that are developed, or are in the process of developing.
there is a clue in the thread i wrote on 3-16 #25240.....
"like we deserve".
thanks everyone for this open dialogue. so both sides of the human
equation are present and learning how to hear each other harmonies.
so you were "curious" dalty? lol
mr
"i am a woman"......sounds like the title to a tune that has my name on it.
i visit this site because it helps me feel connected to jazz piano learning. there's lots to learn here....and very interesting threads to read. i am a woman(and have been for quite awhile). i have a particular affinity for jazz. i know some of the basic classical repertoire, and would like to keep learning.
why don't more women play jazz? i can only surmise that it might have something to do with the societal view of what was, and is appropiate for women to play. in terms of gender, it has been male-centered because men have been given cultural permission to explore and move about in the world more so than women. jazz/blues have been music that has grown out of movement. also, there has been an unspoken belief system that relegated women to the ranks of being vocalists, but not always viewed as "musicians/instrumentals". this has been the sometimes subtle and not so subtle forms of gender discrimination.
so i think something really powerful is taking place on this site(healthy inquisitiveness" where are the women?") and in our society in general. yes, we females, being human have the capacity to be music-makers just like our male counterparts. music-creation is a human endeavor. jazz music-making is a human creative pursuit.
more than likely, each one of us coming to this site have some common personality traits which draws us to this music; on the other side each one of us has some unique abilities that are developed, or are in the process of developing.
there is a clue in the thread i wrote on 3-16 #25240.....
"like we deserve".
thanks everyone for this open dialogue. so both sides of the human
equation are present and learning how to hear each other harmonies.
so you were "curious" dalty? lol
mr
There are 67 comments, leave a comment.
these days, there are many women playing jazz.
perhaps in the past, the life of a jazz musician was rather a rough one for a woman.
and, as in all fields, men tend to concentrate very single-mindedly on their careers, whereas women tend to give more importance to relationships and family. of course, these are generalizations, but true ones.
perhaps in the past, the life of a jazz musician was rather a rough one for a woman.
and, as in all fields, men tend to concentrate very single-mindedly on their careers, whereas women tend to give more importance to relationships and family. of course, these are generalizations, but true ones.
but y'all (not just the women!) really need to know mary lou williams!
thanks, ruth. i actually realized after i posted on the other thread that you actually mentioned that you are a woman. sorry, i must have overlooked that statement. i always wondered why there aren't more women playing jazz. you and cynbad seem to have hit on some good points. i would say if you compare now to 70 years ago, things have changed a decent amount. even though it seems there aren't a lot of women playing jazz(which, really....there aren't compared to the number of men), there are a lot more than 70 years ago. just like there are probably a lot more men these days engaging in activities that used to be predominantly done by women. it'll be interesting to see how things change in the next 70 years.
i can't believe i used the word "actually" twice in a sentence...........ugh.
this it a bit like women and computers. i am a woman - an old woman - and i have played jazz (not well but enjoyably as an amateur) for years. i know quite a few women who play jazz and a woman who teaches jazz (associated board). we are out there.
however, when i began in jazz and computers i got fed up with the look that i got from, mainly young, boys and men when i entered into discussions and even when i went to buy something for either subject. i constantly used the phrase "yes i know, wrong gender and wrong age group". i frequently find it useful and am taken more seriously to masquerade as a man. sad isn't it, but to gt the job done one has to improvise (if you'll pardon the pun).
however, when i began in jazz and computers i got fed up with the look that i got from, mainly young, boys and men when i entered into discussions and even when i went to buy something for either subject. i constantly used the phrase "yes i know, wrong gender and wrong age group". i frequently find it useful and am taken more seriously to masquerade as a man. sad isn't it, but to gt the job done one has to improvise (if you'll pardon the pun).
another woman playing jazz here.
::::::waving her hand::::::::
two thoughts. the first is that we probably don't really know how many women jazz musicians there were in the past for two reasons: one, fewer probably got recording contracts due to the belief that women can only be "sold" as girl singers; therefore, we don't have the recordings. and two, perhaps no one talked about them or wrote about them much. similar to how history used to be about wars and conquests, etc. if your gender isn't operating in wars and conquests, then you aren't a part of history. similar as well to in other arts like painting where there were women painters but they didn't get either the same commission for work or the analysis by art historians til recently.
my second thought is that things are changing. the person who won the national jazz award here in canada last year for both top jazz pianist and top composer is a woman in her twenties named liala biali. her bassist in her trio is also a woman, brandi disterheft. they also both have been recognized by the iaje. and both are highly respected as musicians first. brandi is the bassist of choice for gigs here in toronto because she is amazingly talented and reliable in every genre. she is gigging 7 nights a week.
also, as an amateur, i have had no trouble finding people to jam with and they mostly are men due to fewer amateur women in jazz. i feel that i have been respected for my musicianship. the only time i have felt dissed or disrespected is at some jam sessions where, yes, i do believe that i was looked down on a bit because of my gender.
so, net net, i think the answer is for us women is to get out there and play and mix it up a bit. and if anyone gives you crap, go on to the next musician(s) to play/gig with. the mature ones know that it is all about the music, no matter what the gender of the players.
::::::waving her hand::::::::
two thoughts. the first is that we probably don't really know how many women jazz musicians there were in the past for two reasons: one, fewer probably got recording contracts due to the belief that women can only be "sold" as girl singers; therefore, we don't have the recordings. and two, perhaps no one talked about them or wrote about them much. similar to how history used to be about wars and conquests, etc. if your gender isn't operating in wars and conquests, then you aren't a part of history. similar as well to in other arts like painting where there were women painters but they didn't get either the same commission for work or the analysis by art historians til recently.
my second thought is that things are changing. the person who won the national jazz award here in canada last year for both top jazz pianist and top composer is a woman in her twenties named liala biali. her bassist in her trio is also a woman, brandi disterheft. they also both have been recognized by the iaje. and both are highly respected as musicians first. brandi is the bassist of choice for gigs here in toronto because she is amazingly talented and reliable in every genre. she is gigging 7 nights a week.
also, as an amateur, i have had no trouble finding people to jam with and they mostly are men due to fewer amateur women in jazz. i feel that i have been respected for my musicianship. the only time i have felt dissed or disrespected is at some jam sessions where, yes, i do believe that i was looked down on a bit because of my gender.
so, net net, i think the answer is for us women is to get out there and play and mix it up a bit. and if anyone gives you crap, go on to the next musician(s) to play/gig with. the mature ones know that it is all about the music, no matter what the gender of the players.
excellent advice from pianogirl, and kai, it's funny you mention computers and jazz in the same breath. i've been a computer programmer & systems analyst for the past 12 years. it's often a big misconception that certain fields are "masculine" or "male-dominated". every place i've worked in the computer field, my co-workers have been at least 50% female, often more. nearly all my is/it managers or directors have been females. right now, the entire staff of programmer/analysts is female. when guys say things about there not being any women in it, i look at them like they're crazy. these are usually young guys, who i think need to feel they're doing something macho. maybe the same thing happens in jazz.
often there are many women involved in something, but males will turn a blind eye and not even notice them -- perhaps not taking them seriously.
often there are many women involved in something, but males will turn a blind eye and not even notice them -- perhaps not taking them seriously.
here's a question for the guys on this site.....and i hope we can have an honest discussion without any flames!
have you thought "less" of a musician because of their gender (and nothing to do with their level of musicianship)? do you prefer to play with other guys or does it not matter? why or why not?
i guess what i am hoping to dissect a bit is how much of this feeling for us women musicians is out there and how much of it is "old news" and mostly a hangover for us from previous experiences that no longer occur.
in other words, do you see us first as musicians or does the fact that we are women override that?
have you thought "less" of a musician because of their gender (and nothing to do with their level of musicianship)? do you prefer to play with other guys or does it not matter? why or why not?
i guess what i am hoping to dissect a bit is how much of this feeling for us women musicians is out there and how much of it is "old news" and mostly a hangover for us from previous experiences that no longer occur.
in other words, do you see us first as musicians or does the fact that we are women override that?
sexism is rampant throughout this planet and will continue to be for many years to come. change is wrought in small pieces, a little at a time. i will never live to see the extermination of sexism, bigotry, racism, extremist religiosity, hatred; but i will continue to fight all those "lovely" aspects of modern human society. i was probably fortunate to have been raised by a strong-willed, intelligent, talented mother who competed, successfully, in a very male dominated field. suffice it to say that i could not care less what sex, race, religion, ethnicity you are. can you accomplish the task at hand and still be a decent person while doing it? that is the only question i need answered.
thanks!
thanks!
in answer to your question pianogirl; in the past i've often found women musicians or singers with an ego, but so also with the guys. i like to play with good musicians, and curves add a delightful dimension.
ah! liala! she is killin. and a really sweet person, too. a good friend of mine has done some playing with her.......shirantha beddage. you may know of him, pianogirl, as he is from the toronto area.
"have you thought "less" of a musician because of their gender (and nothing to do with their level of musicianship)? do you prefer to play with other guys or does it not matter? why or why not?"
well, no i have not(at least not conciously.........who knows what the subconcious is doing). basically, if it's not swingin, it's not swingin. i will say that a majority of female players i have heard and/or played with, i have not really liked(musically). that is a majority.....not all. but, to be honest...............i could really say the same thing for men, too! i do not have a preference, however, of who i play with. as long as the music is good....that is what is important. i do think that there are some female jazz musicians out there who are getting a little more publicity than they deserve......deanna witkowski, rachel z, eliane elias to name a few. i feel like they get more kudos than geri allen or joanne brackeen, who are both on another level comparitively. but, again.....i suppose the same could apply to men.
"i like to play with good musicians, and curves add a delightful dimension."
watch out!
"i frequently find it useful and am taken more seriously to masquerade as a man."
lol.....this reminds me of a story that joanne brackeen told me once. she said that her and a friend went shopping for wigs on a whim one day, and she bought a blonde one. she said that it usually takes her a bit to catch a cab, so, she decided to try an experiment. she put the blonde wig on went out to catch a cab...........said it took no time. she said she tried this several times.......and the blonde wig always got her a faster response from the cab drivers. i wonder how it would be if paris hilton had grey hair? :o)
"have you thought "less" of a musician because of their gender (and nothing to do with their level of musicianship)? do you prefer to play with other guys or does it not matter? why or why not?"
well, no i have not(at least not conciously.........who knows what the subconcious is doing). basically, if it's not swingin, it's not swingin. i will say that a majority of female players i have heard and/or played with, i have not really liked(musically). that is a majority.....not all. but, to be honest...............i could really say the same thing for men, too! i do not have a preference, however, of who i play with. as long as the music is good....that is what is important. i do think that there are some female jazz musicians out there who are getting a little more publicity than they deserve......deanna witkowski, rachel z, eliane elias to name a few. i feel like they get more kudos than geri allen or joanne brackeen, who are both on another level comparitively. but, again.....i suppose the same could apply to men.
"i like to play with good musicians, and curves add a delightful dimension."
watch out!
"i frequently find it useful and am taken more seriously to masquerade as a man."
lol.....this reminds me of a story that joanne brackeen told me once. she said that her and a friend went shopping for wigs on a whim one day, and she bought a blonde one. she said that it usually takes her a bit to catch a cab, so, she decided to try an experiment. she put the blonde wig on went out to catch a cab...........said it took no time. she said she tried this several times.......and the blonde wig always got her a faster response from the cab drivers. i wonder how it would be if paris hilton had grey hair? :o)
from a business standpoint i've hired women and women have hired me.
you put together your set, you play the gig, you get your money. if you get a few more nights with that lineup - great, if not, there's something else happening right around the corner.
as far as technique and groove is concerned, women tend to have a softer less aggresive approach to music than men.
usually this is an advantage, sometimes it's a detriment.
you put together your set, you play the gig, you get your money. if you get a few more nights with that lineup - great, if not, there's something else happening right around the corner.
as far as technique and groove is concerned, women tend to have a softer less aggresive approach to music than men.
usually this is an advantage, sometimes it's a detriment.
wow! i haven't checked this site for a few days. i've never seen my name at the top of anyone's thread before. but still after reading all these posts, i can't figure why i personally was addressed. oh, well. thanks for thinking of me, mruth.
yes, jazz is big enough for all who care to take it on. just a note on where i am coming from. i am a nurse practitioner in a traditionally female field so i have known what it is like to be outnumbered in the workplace. so, i encourage women and men alike to
continue to break down the walls in this music we love.
continue to break down the walls in this music we love.
jh murray
you are welcome. i was responding to your comment #25264. it was
part of the thread started by stumpy on "am i to be a jazz pianist".
you said something about "he" was being gentle; i was amused
because "he" is really a "she". this thread has provided some interesting insights in terms of how women and men see each other and how playing music is approached by each group.
mr
you are welcome. i was responding to your comment #25264. it was
part of the thread started by stumpy on "am i to be a jazz pianist".
you said something about "he" was being gentle; i was amused
because "he" is really a "she". this thread has provided some interesting insights in terms of how women and men see each other and how playing music is approached by each group.
mr
7
i agree that sometimes women's approach is less aggressive and i think that we(women) could stand to have a bit more push, but on the
other side men can be overly aggressive with the competitive thing
of having to demonstrate their "chops" to each other. so perhaps some middle ground can be found for both groups.
how do you work with your female students to get them improvising in a confident manner?
mr
i agree that sometimes women's approach is less aggressive and i think that we(women) could stand to have a bit more push, but on the
other side men can be overly aggressive with the competitive thing
of having to demonstrate their "chops" to each other. so perhaps some middle ground can be found for both groups.
how do you work with your female students to get them improvising in a confident manner?
mr
7, most women are capable of playing aggressively -- it's learned, just like anything else.
i've know many a male who had a hard time learning to play sensitively.
both are learned and have nothing to do with capability.
tell martha argerich she can't play aggressively. she's not a lesbian either.
from what i've heard of your playing, 7, you don't play very aggressively yourself.
i've know many a male who had a hard time learning to play sensitively.
both are learned and have nothing to do with capability.
tell martha argerich she can't play aggressively. she's not a lesbian either.
from what i've heard of your playing, 7, you don't play very aggressively yourself.
the exception.
* * * * * * *
you are welcome to your opinion regarding my musical skills.
i don't know how much of my work you have listened to, but i have always tried to make a variety of examples of my playing available to ljp forum members for both their entertainment and education (see my recent thread entitled "some audio files for you").
* * * * * * *
you are welcome to your opinion regarding my musical skills.
i don't know how much of my work you have listened to, but i have always tried to make a variety of examples of my playing available to ljp forum members for both their entertainment and education (see my recent thread entitled "some audio files for you").
"but most women are not capable of playing agressively."
bad choice of words, 7.
capabilities are mostly learned -- thru practice.
women learn to play aggressively if they practice it.
men learn to play sensitively if they practice it.
any well-rounded musician will want to learn both, and will practice both. one is not more important than the other. one is not superior to the other.
any great musician is an exception to the rule.
bad choice of words, 7.
capabilities are mostly learned -- thru practice.
women learn to play aggressively if they practice it.
men learn to play sensitively if they practice it.
any well-rounded musician will want to learn both, and will practice both. one is not more important than the other. one is not superior to the other.
any great musician is an exception to the rule.
"any well-rounded musician will want to learn both, and will practice both"
well said, cyn. i've always felt the same way. it's a yin/yang thang.
well said, cyn. i've always felt the same way. it's a yin/yang thang.
not to practice that way.
just in case you're thinking that i believe that women lack the necessary "equipment" to tear it up, you might be interested to know that my wife is also a professional musician.
she is a fantastic singer and a total pro-level balls-out bass player.
and, yes, she is one of those exceptions.
just in case you're thinking that i believe that women lack the necessary "equipment" to tear it up, you might be interested to know that my wife is also a professional musician.
she is a fantastic singer and a total pro-level balls-out bass player.
and, yes, she is one of those exceptions.
perhaps since i come from a classical background where everyone is required to practice everything, and play both aggressively and sensitively, i have been exposed to a completely different reality than you have.
lucky you 7, about your wife. so, does she usually sing and play bass, or just concentrate on one at a time?
the number of female role models in jazz has definitely improved. the list shouldn't be limited to just pianists. great players like regina carter and ingrid jensen have had a tremedous impact.
but, more can be done...
i think that jazz educators, especially in the schools, need to make sure they are encouraging the boys and the girls to take the musical risks associated with jazz. girls often excel in music but have a more difficult transition into jazz due to social pressures to conform and 'play all the right notes'. i think more jazz educators could find that the girls could be a secret weapon in their quest for a great jazz band. once they 'get it' the girls will pour all their energy into being the best.
but, more can be done...
i think that jazz educators, especially in the schools, need to make sure they are encouraging the boys and the girls to take the musical risks associated with jazz. girls often excel in music but have a more difficult transition into jazz due to social pressures to conform and 'play all the right notes'. i think more jazz educators could find that the girls could be a secret weapon in their quest for a great jazz band. once they 'get it' the girls will pour all their energy into being the best.
maree, you make some very good points.
i remember ages ago when i was in jazz band in high school, there were several girls in the jazz bands, but we were still very much in the minority. the lead trumpet players in both bands where girls. there were girls playing sax and trombone, and of course, piano.
i even knew some girls drummers back then.
this was the 1970s. i wonder what direction the high school jazz bands have gone since then? i have seen young girls at the port townsend workshop playing just about every instrument, but still, girls are in the minority.
i think you made a very good point about girls conforming and wanting to play all the right notes. girls often excel at academics for this very reason, whereas boys seem to take more chances and be more daring. it would be a good idea for educators to encourage risk taking for both sexes, rather than perfection at "following directions".
i remember ages ago when i was in jazz band in high school, there were several girls in the jazz bands, but we were still very much in the minority. the lead trumpet players in both bands where girls. there were girls playing sax and trombone, and of course, piano.
i even knew some girls drummers back then.
this was the 1970s. i wonder what direction the high school jazz bands have gone since then? i have seen young girls at the port townsend workshop playing just about every instrument, but still, girls are in the minority.
i think you made a very good point about girls conforming and wanting to play all the right notes. girls often excel at academics for this very reason, whereas boys seem to take more chances and be more daring. it would be a good idea for educators to encourage risk taking for both sexes, rather than perfection at "following directions".
i am a woman too!!!
maybe some women avoid the scene because they're tired of being "hit upon", or their mates don't trust them in such an environment, which creates for them problems at home. womem are noticed anyway & even more so when they're on stage.
"she plays and sings simultaneously."
that's pretty good. but can she carry on a conversation with someone and play at the same time. that to me is harder.
that's pretty good. but can she carry on a conversation with someone and play at the same time. that to me is harder.
solart, i disagree. i don't think women "avoid the scene" and i don't think women are always getting "hit on". that has never been my experience nor have i witnessed it very often. and the spouse's opinion -- well, that's irrelevant. we're talking about playing music together, which is just like working together in an office, or on a software development team, or whatever. any spouse that has an objection to that needs to be kicked to the curb.
women are more likely to "avoid the scene" because they are ignored, not taken seriously, or simply do not care for the hyper-competetive, top-dog atmosphere that permeates some of these boys' clubs.
women are more likely to "avoid the scene" because they are ignored, not taken seriously, or simply do not care for the hyper-competetive, top-dog atmosphere that permeates some of these boys' clubs.
personally i'm not so sure about that cynbad; 'could be that perhaps the particular part of the country or country itself make for different reasons. 'seems to me that generally wherever you go such as clubs or pools, etc, the men outnumber the woman excessively.
i'm not arguing that men don't outnumber women at jazz clubs (and i thought that we were talking about playing, not attending), i was arguing about what the motivation is.
i think if you want to know why there aren't more women, you need to ask the women, rather than making some very weird guesses.
i think you'd get responses like "i don't like jazz", "i don't feel welcome", "i don't like the hyper-competetive atmosphere".
i go to jazz clubs and workshops. i'm a married female. my husband hates jazz. no problem. i go to these things alone. i have a good time meeting new people and have interesting conversations about jazz that i can't have with my husband.
same thing with work. we can discuss programming, software development, etc. -- things my husband has no clue about. see, women generally have no problem doing things that are important to them, even if they're in the minority or their spouse is not involved.
maybe it's a matter of interest -- just like engineering, for example. maybe fewer women are interested in jazz just like fewer women are interested in engineering. it just doesn't appeal to them, for whatever reason.
i think if you want to know why there aren't more women, you need to ask the women, rather than making some very weird guesses.
i think you'd get responses like "i don't like jazz", "i don't feel welcome", "i don't like the hyper-competetive atmosphere".
i go to jazz clubs and workshops. i'm a married female. my husband hates jazz. no problem. i go to these things alone. i have a good time meeting new people and have interesting conversations about jazz that i can't have with my husband.
same thing with work. we can discuss programming, software development, etc. -- things my husband has no clue about. see, women generally have no problem doing things that are important to them, even if they're in the minority or their spouse is not involved.
maybe it's a matter of interest -- just like engineering, for example. maybe fewer women are interested in jazz just like fewer women are interested in engineering. it just doesn't appeal to them, for whatever reason.
help me boys!
what about ipod downloads and cd sales? i would be curious about
what women's interest is there. anybody see the wynton marsalis
commercial? it did feature a woman.
what women's interest is there. anybody see the wynton marsalis
commercial? it did feature a woman.
solart, i don't see where you need help, and especially not from the boys. if you want to know a woman's motivations, ask a woman.
most men don't like jazz either. there's just a higher percentage of men than women interested in jazz. it's a difference in interests, as other posters have mentioned.
it doesn't bother me at all to be in the minority. what does bother me is if/when there is unfair discrimination or bigoted attitudes.
most men don't like jazz either. there's just a higher percentage of men than women interested in jazz. it's a difference in interests, as other posters have mentioned.
it doesn't bother me at all to be in the minority. what does bother me is if/when there is unfair discrimination or bigoted attitudes.
i've been playing with a female bass player in my piano trio for almost 3 years. i use her because she's the best bassist in the area. she can also be a pain in the ass like most bass players when she lays all that theory on me. all i can say is," i don't know what it is; i'm just playin." we also use a kick ass female drummer when bubba can't make it. what i'm saying is that i've never seen any kind of discrimination in jazz in forty years of playing gigs. that's on the bandstand; not in the audience.
solart is requesting help in his fight with cynbad. i hope to help him.
i will try to help cynbad also in her fight with solart.
history has been very unjust with women. until xx century women only worked in home jobs and they did not have access to education... thus only men appear in all professions, jobs, arts, policy, and everything along history.
an interesting example is george sand, the french lover of chopin, which got dressed as man and used a male name to be able to dedicate itself to its profession as writer.
thus in history of music, we don’t see women in a high level as bach, liszt, chopin, debussy...
let us remember that jazz in its beginnings was exclusively performed in bars and night clubs no apt for ladies.... and only few of them could come into that atmosphere.
xx century came to be the moment of the liberation and overcoming of women. ladies entered in universities and began to move men in many works and professions.
now there are women like mrs. rice, directing the policy of usa, women flying jets, great scientists, university professors, political leaders, and of course, great talents in all fields of music, and women playing jazz , and classical, and rock, and pop, and gospel, and folk, with success.
ladies are creative and sensitive and have talent for jazz, but may be most opportunities are nowadays for men by some strange circumstances.
and i finish my post with a pray:
i will try to help cynbad also in her fight with solart.
history has been very unjust with women. until xx century women only worked in home jobs and they did not have access to education... thus only men appear in all professions, jobs, arts, policy, and everything along history.
an interesting example is george sand, the french lover of chopin, which got dressed as man and used a male name to be able to dedicate itself to its profession as writer.
thus in history of music, we don’t see women in a high level as bach, liszt, chopin, debussy...
let us remember that jazz in its beginnings was exclusively performed in bars and night clubs no apt for ladies.... and only few of them could come into that atmosphere.
xx century came to be the moment of the liberation and overcoming of women. ladies entered in universities and began to move men in many works and professions.
now there are women like mrs. rice, directing the policy of usa, women flying jets, great scientists, university professors, political leaders, and of course, great talents in all fields of music, and women playing jazz , and classical, and rock, and pop, and gospel, and folk, with success.
ladies are creative and sensitive and have talent for jazz, but may be most opportunities are nowadays for men by some strange circumstances.
and i finish my post with a pray:
it's not really a "fight", just my opinion; no big deal.
"i am a woman" too - but only at the weekend
a good friend of mine and one i play with very frequently is an extremely talented female tenor saxophone player. i'm not saying that she's never faced hardship for her gender; i have no idea. however, from the time i've known her, i have not known her gender to be a disadvantage to her. she works really frequently, and toured with nick payton.
lol i didn't think we were fighting either! but i appreciate albetan's post.
i think for the most part, serious jazz musicians aren't prejudiced against women. however, there's been much discussion about wynton marsalis's lincoln center jazz orchesta (??) and that fact that it's all male and nearly all males of color. one of the head honchos actually stated outright, "women can't swing."
marsalis will not publicly address the issue.
i would love to see blindfold auditions for that group. that's the only way any auditions can be guaranteed to be fair.
as soon as the orchestras in the usa implemented blindfold auditions (mandated by the union), the number of women and racial minorities in symphony orchestras increased exponentially.
sometimes people aren't even aware that they are prejudiced, or that what they see is influencing what they hear.
i think for the most part, serious jazz musicians aren't prejudiced against women. however, there's been much discussion about wynton marsalis's lincoln center jazz orchesta (??) and that fact that it's all male and nearly all males of color. one of the head honchos actually stated outright, "women can't swing."
marsalis will not publicly address the issue.
i would love to see blindfold auditions for that group. that's the only way any auditions can be guaranteed to be fair.
as soon as the orchestras in the usa implemented blindfold auditions (mandated by the union), the number of women and racial minorities in symphony orchestras increased exponentially.
sometimes people aren't even aware that they are prejudiced, or that what they see is influencing what they hear.
wynton doesn't swing.
lol
good ol' wynton marsalis
striving to make jazz into museum music
good ol' wynton marsalis
striving to make jazz into museum music
hi albetan,
appreciate your comments about women and jazz. you say, "ladies are creative and sensitive, and have a talent for jazz, but most opportunities are nowadays for men by some strange circumstances".
i am questioning what has/is changing if opportunities are directed toward men as players? this would seem to be a form of discrimination, subtle but operating as part of the unspoken and informal rules in the culture. unspoken agreements are extremely difficult to change because they exist in the form of the "in group and the "out group". it would seem "opportunities" have a tacit agreement attached that dictate that the "in group" are suppose to receive the recognition, the playing time, gigs, or whatever the
"goodies" deem appropriate for the "in group". by in large, men are still seen as the "in group". marsalis's lincoln center band is a major example of "in group" along with a bit of jazz elitism thrown
in on the side. to this end, i speculate that perhaps the "boys club belief system" doesn't view any woman as being quite up to par with the "young(old )lions of jazz...????
so it is not really "strange circumstances" just our prevailing belief system about who is entitled and who is not..............
perhaps the way opportunities happen, starts with each of us looking at our own thinking. i would say that i am an intermediate player...know ii v i's, can handle 12 bar blues, but definitely having to free up more movement in improvising. i have had some playing in my community.....but interestingly, any number of people have asked,
what are you going to sing? this question of course comes out of the
perception that women are vocalists. i would never even presume to do what many wonderful vocalists do. here i am attempting to do the best i can on an instrument that is really a lifetime journey, but the perception is that men are instrumentals, and women if they do anything must be a singer. an coupled with this is the disrespect
that singers sometimes get because they don't have the background that
instrumental have......anyway, i'm sure you already know this
scenario. at least we all are talking(posting).
so how can these "strange circumstances be undone??????
mr
appreciate your comments about women and jazz. you say, "ladies are creative and sensitive, and have a talent for jazz, but most opportunities are nowadays for men by some strange circumstances".
i am questioning what has/is changing if opportunities are directed toward men as players? this would seem to be a form of discrimination, subtle but operating as part of the unspoken and informal rules in the culture. unspoken agreements are extremely difficult to change because they exist in the form of the "in group and the "out group". it would seem "opportunities" have a tacit agreement attached that dictate that the "in group" are suppose to receive the recognition, the playing time, gigs, or whatever the
"goodies" deem appropriate for the "in group". by in large, men are still seen as the "in group". marsalis's lincoln center band is a major example of "in group" along with a bit of jazz elitism thrown
in on the side. to this end, i speculate that perhaps the "boys club belief system" doesn't view any woman as being quite up to par with the "young(old )lions of jazz...????
so it is not really "strange circumstances" just our prevailing belief system about who is entitled and who is not..............
perhaps the way opportunities happen, starts with each of us looking at our own thinking. i would say that i am an intermediate player...know ii v i's, can handle 12 bar blues, but definitely having to free up more movement in improvising. i have had some playing in my community.....but interestingly, any number of people have asked,
what are you going to sing? this question of course comes out of the
perception that women are vocalists. i would never even presume to do what many wonderful vocalists do. here i am attempting to do the best i can on an instrument that is really a lifetime journey, but the perception is that men are instrumentals, and women if they do anything must be a singer. an coupled with this is the disrespect
that singers sometimes get because they don't have the background that
instrumental have......anyway, i'm sure you already know this
scenario. at least we all are talking(posting).
so how can these "strange circumstances be undone??????
mr
i just read an article about a new orchestra forming in montreal. they are all immigrants who, in their previous life/country, were professional musicians and now are not in the "in group" in montreal. i'm not sure if this(forming their own band) will help them get into the "in group" in the future, but maybe it will help them form their own. maybe not the best solution (that being completely eradicating prejudicial beliefs), but these folks are doing what they love.
barry
barry
dear mruth:
"so how can these "strange circumstances be undone??????"
this is the million's question...
"so how can these "strange circumstances be undone??????"
this is the million's question...
if that were true, 7, they'd be asking male musicians the same question. they aren't.
i also don't believe that it's assumed that all "pro" musicians sing.
nor was mruth necessarily talking about "pro" musicians.
i also don't believe that it's assumed that all "pro" musicians sing.
nor was mruth necessarily talking about "pro" musicians.
we are not talking about being asked that question by some idiot bar owner, or audience member, or the judges at american idol.
we are talking about walking into a jazz jam session and being asked that question by other musicians.
when a woman is in music, the first assumption is always that she is a singer. mruth is completely accurate in her perception of these remarks. as far as being expected to sing if you're a pro -- it's kind of hard to sing while playing a trumpet, now isn't it?
we are talking about walking into a jazz jam session and being asked that question by other musicians.
when a woman is in music, the first assumption is always that she is a singer. mruth is completely accurate in her perception of these remarks. as far as being expected to sing if you're a pro -- it's kind of hard to sing while playing a trumpet, now isn't it?
i must have missed it. what's wrong with being accused of being a
singer? maybe it is a false assumption. kinda like assuming a tall
guy plays basketball. ain't necessarily so.
assume = making an a__ out of u and me.
singer? maybe it is a false assumption. kinda like assuming a tall
guy plays basketball. ain't necessarily so.
assume = making an a__ out of u and me.
instrumentalists who also sing are in the minority.
i mean sing well, and do it in public.
chet baker is a rare example.
i will have to agree with you on one thing, though... the general public thinks of music only in terms of singers and songs. the general public will indeed automatically assume that anyone in music must be a singer.
they don't understand music without lyrics. they don't understand anything that's not a "song".
my first assumption, if someone tells me they're a musician, or they're into music, is that they play an instrument. my first response is to ask them what instrument they play.
whether you want to admit it or not, there is some very real stereotyping about females and singers. that doesn't mean that you do it personally, but it certainly exists -- it's certainly real.
i mean sing well, and do it in public.
chet baker is a rare example.
i will have to agree with you on one thing, though... the general public thinks of music only in terms of singers and songs. the general public will indeed automatically assume that anyone in music must be a singer.
they don't understand music without lyrics. they don't understand anything that's not a "song".
my first assumption, if someone tells me they're a musician, or they're into music, is that they play an instrument. my first response is to ask them what instrument they play.
whether you want to admit it or not, there is some very real stereotyping about females and singers. that doesn't mean that you do it personally, but it certainly exists -- it's certainly real.
"those that don't sing find themselves constantly apologizing for their deficiency, and are thought less of as musicians by musicians if they don't sing."
ummmmmmm....
i ain't never heard most of the jazz musicians i listen to sing and probably never will, because they're not singers. i mean did coltrane sing?? miles?? mingus?? jarrett?? chick corea?? bill evans??
i am not quite following what you're saying 7.
the jazz musicians that i dig, like scofield, lovano, ben allison, herbie, and a shit load of others, to the best of my knowledge, don't sing.
reminds me of the time i went to see mike stern at the bluenote in ny, and a mic was on stage and mike said with a big smile, "you can turn this mic off, i ain't going to be doing any singing". atleast not with his voice.
-j
ummmmmmm....
i ain't never heard most of the jazz musicians i listen to sing and probably never will, because they're not singers. i mean did coltrane sing?? miles?? mingus?? jarrett?? chick corea?? bill evans??
i am not quite following what you're saying 7.
the jazz musicians that i dig, like scofield, lovano, ben allison, herbie, and a shit load of others, to the best of my knowledge, don't sing.
reminds me of the time i went to see mike stern at the bluenote in ny, and a mic was on stage and mike said with a big smile, "you can turn this mic off, i ain't going to be doing any singing". atleast not with his voice.
-j
whether or not these people ever sang in public, you can be darn sure that if they had any formal training that they could sing.
conservatories, etc force students to learn to sight-sing. music majors have no choice but to learn to sing.
refuse to sight-sing and you'll never get your degree.
c'mon you julliard and berklee grads, clue them in on that dirty little secret.
conservatories, etc force students to learn to sight-sing. music majors have no choice but to learn to sing.
refuse to sight-sing and you'll never get your degree.
c'mon you julliard and berklee grads, clue them in on that dirty little secret.
i'm reminded of another singing trumpet player who probably had the least likely "singer's voice" in the history of the planet, yet his singing forever changed the world for every jazz singer since him (as well as all the jazz instrumentalists).
of course, you know who i mean.
and if he had the courage to get up and sing in public with a set of pipes like that, anybody could.
of course, you know who i mean.
and if he had the courage to get up and sing in public with a set of pipes like that, anybody could.
satchmo!
i think the misunderstanding here is on the terms "to sing" and "to be a singer". i think, like 7, that every good musicians sing (for themselves, or to help their ears, etc.) but they are not "singers" (they do not sing in public, and do not make money with their voice) for many reasons (bad voice, etc.)
didn't you notice that, when transcribing a solo, you're able to play a phrase, only after being able to sing it ?
listen to the similarities of chet's singed solos and his played solos. same notes, same phrasing, same ideas.
pnowannabe, btw, herbie sings on plenty funk albums.
didn't you notice that, when transcribing a solo, you're able to play a phrase, only after being able to sing it ?
listen to the similarities of chet's singed solos and his played solos. same notes, same phrasing, same ideas.
pnowannabe, btw, herbie sings on plenty funk albums.
yes, i agree with 7 and groyann that singing is a part of musicianship. i had a bit of singing in vocal jazz, but was glad to be doing the "oh, oh"parts. the lead vocalist was a singer. vocalists who use their voices as their major mode of musical expression caress their microphones the way that other musicians embrace their instruments.
the central point in this thread is about stereotypic perceptions of women that cynbad mentioned in her post. mainly i chose to have my identity linked with creative expression through music. in this way playing and learning piano and having the choice to share in
whatever way i chose opens possibilities. i sing in my house, and
do some basic singing as part of church work.
i very much agree with j. aebersold and many others, that singing helps guide learning to improvisation. there is definitely a possibility that i might sing a bit in public when i feel comfortable and chose to explore this option. 7 you serve as an example for being open to many different musical ways of expression. thank you.
louie armstrong liked his own singing, it was an extension of his horn. did anyone ask lil'hardin (armstrong) to sing? she probably
did sing as part of being a composer,piano player and arranger.
i wonder if she sang, "struttin' with some barbecue". do people ask ms. mcpartland to sing......she probably can, but does chose to do so.
mr
the central point in this thread is about stereotypic perceptions of women that cynbad mentioned in her post. mainly i chose to have my identity linked with creative expression through music. in this way playing and learning piano and having the choice to share in
whatever way i chose opens possibilities. i sing in my house, and
do some basic singing as part of church work.
i very much agree with j. aebersold and many others, that singing helps guide learning to improvisation. there is definitely a possibility that i might sing a bit in public when i feel comfortable and chose to explore this option. 7 you serve as an example for being open to many different musical ways of expression. thank you.
louie armstrong liked his own singing, it was an extension of his horn. did anyone ask lil'hardin (armstrong) to sing? she probably
did sing as part of being a composer,piano player and arranger.
i wonder if she sang, "struttin' with some barbecue". do people ask ms. mcpartland to sing......she probably can, but does chose to do so.
mr
correction: "but does she chose to do so"?
7, groyann hit the nail on the head. it's different to "sing" than to "be a singer" -- as your identity. and yes, as mruth wrote, the topic here was stereotypes, not whether a musician should also sing.
talk about going off on a tangent!
fyi, again, i graduated with a b.mus. degree, and although it was not from berklee or juilliard, of course we all had to sight-sing as part of our freshman or sophomore theory classes. and, imagine this, i actually took voice classes as my minor instrument.
one of the reasons i can say
i am not a singer
i can sing, but i am not a singer, and i choose not to sing, just as i choose not to be a trombonist.
sheesh.
talk about going off on a tangent!
fyi, again, i graduated with a b.mus. degree, and although it was not from berklee or juilliard, of course we all had to sight-sing as part of our freshman or sophomore theory classes. and, imagine this, i actually took voice classes as my minor instrument.
one of the reasons i can say
i am not a singer
i can sing, but i am not a singer, and i choose not to sing, just as i choose not to be a trombonist.
sheesh.
exactly, 7! you finally got it!
lol
lol
one of greatest women in musical show business was the organist ethel smith, (1902 – 1996).
i found this link and i like to share it with all ladies and guys here in ljp, as a great example of women in music:
https://theatreorgans.com/hammond/ethel/esmith.asp
i found this link and i like to share it with all ladies and guys here in ljp, as a great example of women in music:
https://theatreorgans.com/hammond/ethel/esmith.asp
dear albetan,
thank you so much for reference to this informative article on ethel smith. she was, indeed, an immense talent. it seems she was able
to let her uniqueness be expressed through performing and creating in many musical forms without putting limits on herself. again, thanks for a wonderful "read".
mr
thank you so much for reference to this informative article on ethel smith. she was, indeed, an immense talent. it seems she was able
to let her uniqueness be expressed through performing and creating in many musical forms without putting limits on herself. again, thanks for a wonderful "read".
mr
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