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Alt or TTS

so it seems the easiest way to remember a voicing for an altered 7th chord is to simply play the rootless voicing a tritone up, right? given that, what the difference between an alt-7 and a tts? is it the base not (7th root for the alt, tt up for the tts)?

by sdm on 07/30/2006, 18:02

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i'm not a jazz theory expert but i would think you're right, the difference seems to be the root... everything depends on the context but c7 subbed with an f#7 doesn't have to imply f#7#11.

just my opinion but the easiest way to voice an alt7 for me (i tend to play a lot of roots in my voicing) is to play the root b7 with left hand and a minor chord a half note up from the root in my right

lh: 1 b7
rh: b9 3 b13

i think this style of voicing is actually called something but i forget its name.

we'll end up with the same notes however you think about it. i just don't have the ability to see an g#alt7 and figure out that the tritone is d but for a rootless chord you'd be starting on the 3 anyways which is actually a whole step down from the original chord root and then with that note make a m7b5 shape with my left hand : ) probably if i practiced more...

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by sykora on 07/30/2006, 18:30

use of altered chords and their corresponding scale possiblities.
https://www.jeff-brent.com/lessons/altered.html

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by 7 on 07/30/2006, 19:14

always good to have multiple strategies. i'll try yours sykora -- thanks. your stuff is great as always, 7. someday i'll have a good enough handle to create voicings "on-the-fly" based on the applicable scales. thanks guys.

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by sdm on 07/31/2006, 16:00

you're absolutely right about alt. vs. tritone sub. the only difference is the bass note, that's the beauty and the point of them. the bass player can choose...(in fact this ties in with the definition of tts that i uploaded into my room. check it out)

i'm not sure that i like your explanation of "altered chords" 7. i think you're taking the word "altered" too literally and as such missing the point slightly. (in fact i'd contest that "altered chord" is a misnomer, there's an "altered scale" but no "altered chord")
you don't "alter" whatever notes of the mixolydian scale you want to get an altered chord/scale. you change them all or it's not "altered" in this sense. it's g7b13 or g7#9b13 or whatever..

the "altered scale" is like "lydian scale" or "dorian scale". there's only one of them. (7th mode of the melodic minor, in this case ab melodic minor)

i'd suggest f a# b eb (as 7 mentioned above)
or it's equivalent inversion: b eb f a#

these both sound nice i think. another reason for concentrating your efforts on these particular ones is that they seem to work well as voicings for all the other modes of the melodic minor, not just g-altered and db-lydian dominant. maybe because they have a slightly ..neutral? sound to them, yet still get across the necessary harmonic information.. eg. 2 and 4 above sound strongly like f half dim. and db7 respectively to me.. and so would clash a little if used for some of the other modes..

thoughts?

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by thejaffer on 08/01/2006, 18:40

i'll check out your room jaffer. i'm at the point where much of your stuff, 7, is just too advanced for me. i have gotten a lot out of it but often have to skim and see what i can meld into what i understand.

that said, i just love how this body of knowledge builds. when i was first shown a tritone sub i had to dig pretty hard to remember what the heck a tritone was, let alone pick one out. now, less then two years later i can actually use chords built on them. great fun!

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by sdm on 08/02/2006, 15:38

sdm,

       to play a left hand voicing for an altered dominant that can't be mistaken for an unaltered tritone sub, use the melodic minor scale.  take a b7 alt chord to start.  it's derived from c melodic minor, and because there are no "avoid" notes in melodic minor harmony, just use a voicing for the tonic in "c melodic minor," which is c-?.

so, for b7 alt, you could play:  c eb g b     or     eb g b d    or     any inversions of these.

the root helps to "ground" the chord.

transcribing voicings off records will also help expand your knowledge.

best of luck!

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by on 08/02/2006, 22:02

"which is c-?"

sorry about that

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by on 08/02/2006, 22:03

crap it's supposed to be minor major

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by on 08/02/2006, 22:03

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by albetan on 08/03/2006, 11:45

as valuable as ljp.com is, it has it's limitation. i bet 7 and some of the other cats who share their knowlege here are killer instructors when you can sit at the keyboard with them.

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by jmkarns on 08/03/2006, 12:46

cm with maj 7 right? and, by the by, i have a pretty good (i'd say killer!) instructor in randy porter. he just wasn't handy for this question.

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by sdm on 08/03/2006, 15:25

i want to mention that the "alt" chord & scale were not "derived" from the melodic minor scale in terms of their origins in jazz. it's a convenient coincidence that "alt" is the same pool of notes as the 7th mode of melodic minor. players must have started by altering eveything on the dominat 7th chord/scale except the root, 3rd and 7th and then noticed it coincidently was the same notes as the 7th mode of melodic minor.

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by Jazz+ on 08/04/2006, 00:37

so in the beginning of jazz, which scale players did play on alt chords ?

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by groyann on 08/04/2006, 06:39

the alt chord refers to the alt scale, so they didn't write c7 alt in the beginning of jazz. they probably started adding b9 or +5(b13) and then +11 and +9

who knows for sure, but probably they played a diminished scale and then some started raising the 5th and the alt scale was realized. the alt scale is lke a hybrid scale, that's why it is also called the "diminished whole tone" scale.

many players play the diminished scale when they see c7 +9. horace silver tunes often call for that.

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by Jazz+ on 08/04/2006, 16:54

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Alt or TTS

There are 14 comments, leave a comment.

by sykora on 07/30/2006, 18:30

by 7 on 07/30/2006, 19:14

by sdm on 07/31/2006, 16:00

by thejaffer on 08/01/2006, 18:40

by sdm on 08/02/2006, 15:38

by on 08/02/2006, 22:02

by on 08/02/2006, 22:03

by on 08/02/2006, 22:03

by albetan on 08/03/2006, 11:45

by jmkarns on 08/03/2006, 12:46

by sdm on 08/03/2006, 15:25

by Jazz+ on 08/04/2006, 00:37

by groyann on 08/04/2006, 06:39

by Jazz+ on 08/04/2006, 16:54

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Alt or TTS

There are 14 comments, leave a comment.

by sykora on 07/30/2006, 18:30

by 7 on 07/30/2006, 19:14

by sdm on 07/31/2006, 16:00

by thejaffer on 08/01/2006, 18:40

by sdm on 08/02/2006, 15:38

by on 08/02/2006, 22:02

by on 08/02/2006, 22:03

by on 08/02/2006, 22:03

by albetan on 08/03/2006, 11:45

by jmkarns on 08/03/2006, 12:46

by sdm on 08/03/2006, 15:25

by Jazz+ on 08/04/2006, 00:37

by groyann on 08/04/2006, 06:39

by Jazz+ on 08/04/2006, 16:54

Reply to Thread

Jazz Piano Notebook Series

"Latinesque"

LJP Jazz Piano Blogs

Most Recent Discussions

Articles

Top Sheetmusic Picks

Jazz piano education is cool.

Rock on. Follow your passion.

Sign In