hello dear people, i am looking for the chord changes to the real thing .it is a beautiful ballad writtn by torme and mulligan i have been trying without any success. thanks for any response charlie
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well said and agreed!
i'm not convinced, but i'd like to be...

if iim7 is a substitute for iv6, and v7b9 is just the v7 of i, isn't it all really part of the same cadence?

me, being kind of slow and preferring simplicity, i'd rather think about a cadence than scales.  minor plagal cadence, for example.

imo, when looking at great players playing, for example, a minor blues, you don't hear them making changes scrupulously -- they're playing in a single tonality, making the adjustments required for slack/tension of resolution.
i agree, and i think a lot of the great players think about these changes in this manner.  in fact, ii-7(b5) was traditionally written as iv/6.
functional harmony in minor keys is derived from the harmonic minor scale (hence the name "harmonic"). all of the chord tones in all of the chords associated with a minor key are found in the harmonic minor scale. in minor i think of a i chord as a minor triad with a somewhat mutable, undefined 7th. in many lead sheets if the overall key is a minor key the i will be written (if you're in c) as just c-, instead of c-7. when i see c-7 it makes me think that it is either a ii, iii, or vi chord of a major key or a iv chord of minor.  

one scalar approach to ii7b5 v7 i is what randy halberstadt calls the minor bebop scale, it is an 8 note scale and can be thought of as either a harmonic minor scale with a flatted seventh added to it or natural minor scale with a major seventh added to it. it suggests the harmonic structure of minor because it has all the notes of the harmonic minor scale, but adding the flatted seventh smoothes out the jagged sounding augmented second between the minor sixth and the major seventh. over the iim7b5 one would probably want to omit the major seventh from the parent scale, so it would just be c natural minor over dm7b5, or d locrian.

in both major and minor there is a parallel between the chord built from the fourth degree of the scale and the chord built from the second note of the scale. the iv (iv in minor) is the subdominant, the ii chord i've heard called the subdominant parallel. in this system the ii chord is thought of as being simply an inversion of the iv.
i agree with all that too, jwv76.

and "santeven's" initial  post accounts for the c-6 type i chord/scale, the "d locrian #2" type ii chord/scale, and the "g7 alt" type v chord/scale, all which do not occur naturaly in harmonic minor scale.
over a d7 in the parent key of c minor, i would be more likely to use the eb of the d locrian rather that the e natural of the f melodic minor (your fmm scale - aka d locrian #2).  

although i would probably prefer the d locrian #2 in the case of a d7 occuring in a c major context.

using the ab melodic minor over the g7alt is also know as "the g altered scale", "the g super locrian" and "the g diminished-whole tone scale" (aka "the g dimwit scale"). no surprises here.

if thinking of this scale over the g7alt as ab melodic minor (or abmm scale) works for you, more power to you.

note that typically the g7alt chord is expressed as some kind of db7 tritone substitute chord, in which case you can also think of the scale to use over the g7alt/db7/db9/db13/etc chord as "the db lydian dominant".
what advantage is there to think of it as iv bvi instead of ii v?
i do not see why that is any easier or better than thinking of it as a ii v.  are you suggesting it just for the sake of variety and to open new paths of creativity, which then i guess i could see the point.
imho  i think this topic and the ensuing, polite and open, discussion is a prime example of what is so good abut this site.
mike, i understand that you do not see the ease of thinking of it in a different way.  however, the topic was obviously welcomed for whatever reason.  just 'thinking of things in a different way' is sometimes very useful to someone with a different learning style and can often provide a useful 'aha' moment in the learning curve to people who might be struggling to understand a particular concept. it could well result in new paths of creativity. i, as a prime lurker, am grateful for the opportunity to be able to read and consider these issues. discussions.
"are you suggesting it just for the sake of variety and to open new paths of creativity,"

that is exactly what this type of thinking about changes does.  a lot of times, you can derive simplicity from complexity, once you wrap your head around it.  in this case, it seems more complicated to think about the d-7(b5) as an f-6, however, once you start doing it....you'[ll find that you start using stuff that you play over the f- when you get to a d-7(b5).  in my case, it seems more simple to think f-6 than d-7(b5), i dunno why.  it just does.
plus, it is really cool to be able to reuse material over different spots......instead of thinking about it as playing f-6 over a d-7(b5), you could think of it as a shape, or a sound that works over different areas in different ways.  it is sort of like object oriented programming.  the idea in oop is to create code that is abstract enough to be reusable, so as to not repeat yourself.  it is possible to abstract certain things from music that become reusable in different settings, making the ability to execute that much easier, because there is less material to think about.
hehehe, like avoiding spaghetti programming.
the scale fingering is the same as fmm and abmm is another advantage.
dm7b5 ( i think from the 3rd of dm7b5, play fmm )
g7 alt ( i think up a half step, play abmm )
just wanted to add-check out 7's site for his excellent files on minor harmony in light of the present discussion.........
"dimwt" is simply shorthand for "diminished whole tone scale".

it gets that name due to the fact that its bottom tertachord is a hw diminished terachord and its top tetrachord is a lydian (aka whole tone) tetrachord.
all this boffinry makes me feel a bit like a dimwt, but enjoyable nonetheless.
for me it makes no dif whether it is the ii chord or the iv chord i use the bvlydian scale and its variations on minor 7 b 5 chords ... so on d minor 7 b 5  if my brain happens to be functioning i am thinking ab lydian scale.  then for the g7 chord with alt tensions i am thinking f lydian diminished or these days a plain old diminished scale because i have been a little ocd on diminished patterns in the practice room.
oops i meant to say i use the bvilydian scale
oops nope i was right the first time s/b   bv
lol, ok, how many of us in here are also programmers?
i seem to sense a common thread here!
i actually just got into building websites a couple of years ago and i now work as a front end developer(html, css, javascript, etc). however, i am starting to learn oop and i can really see connections between music and programming.  i love that santeven used the term "non-mutable".  hehe.
i have found it to be quite common for musicians to be programmers and programmers to be musicians.  i dabbled in it a few years ago while considering a career change.
my career has been computers but back in the 80's i was in a high-tech company.  they had a software engineering department for their product (laser trimmer if you care) and the guy that ran the department had a doctorate in piano performance.  computers, math and music.
programmer here too. i'm not quite sure i get the similarity between music and programming. except for this one guy from a while back. he used to work at cisco, and could tell all the pitches a good old dial up modem would do while connecting. that was funny. if you search youtube, you'll also find some guy playing 'fur elise' with an old printer.  gotta admit there's creativity there :)
i think the connection has to do with patterns and thinking in the abstract.
i have a b.mus. in piano performance, but my "career" has been that of a programmer/analyst for 13 years now.  
now that i'm reaching midlife crisis, i'm thinking of spending more time on music and less on the computer.
now that you put it that way, i came across an article a few months back about what the best jobs were. and number 1 was software engineer, followed by university professor. those 2 jobs scored really high on creativity and flexibility. i guess i do see a connection after all.
wow, this thread seems to have gone off topic!

shall we get back to minor ii-v-i? i have tried the three melodic minor scale approach and haven't found it very easy to create melodic lines whilst having to deal with three scales. i've had much better results with b3 pentatonics, using the same key centres as the melodic minor scales, ie:
dm7b5 - fgabcd
g7alt - abbbcbebf
cm - cdebga
these pentatonic scales each contain just five notes from the f, ab and c melodic minor scales, which makes improvisation much easier, and sounds funky too!
you can check out loads of examples and other suggestions for minor ii-v-i too, in vol 2 of my book exploring jazz piano. i've sent a copy of vol 1 to scot and he'll hopefully post a review soon..

tim richards
and what are the 5 notes of this b3 pentatonic for this particular minor chord progession (dm7b5-g7alt-cm)?

thanks in advance!
hi bud,

you have to use three b3 pentatonics - i've given the notes of each one next to the chord symbols in my last post. b3 pentatonics are the same as major pentatonics, but with a minor 3rd. they've also been called dorian or minor sixth pentatonics.

if you want to use just one pentatonic scale over the whole sequence, the c minor pentatonic (cebfgbb) works well, as does the blues scale (add f# to the minor pentatonic).  

otherwise, i suggest either the c harmonic minor or c natural minor scale (7-note scales, not pentatonics).  

n vol 2 of my book i demonstrate these approaches via tunes such as yesterdays, softly as a morning sunrise, summertime, and blue bossa (the melody of which uses c natural minor for the whole of the first 8 bars).

good luck!
tim
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